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New Blue Item - Hull Armor

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by benguin8, 5 Dec 2018.

  1. benguin8

    benguin8 Well-Known Member

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    Just read and supported a thread asking for turbo to go away. And i think it can and just include speed increases in with the hp and ship levels.

    But we cannot just lose a blue item. Inspired by the new teal item, Bolster Armor, which is an active defense measure, I thought we needed something similar as a passive measure. Think duct tape is to bandage as bolster armor is to hull armor.

    Hull Armor - Reduces % of incoming damage. I would like it to be a 1 point too, to replace turbo.

    It is passive so it would be much weaker than Bolster Armor. Legendary Bolster is 40% so perhaps maximum of 15 for overall damage%. (similarly common might be 5% max, uncommon 8, rare 10, epic 12) However the twist is you can apply almost ANY perk to the armor and negate its effect.

    For example, apply and epic 8% cannon perk to the hull armor and your ship will reduce all incoming cannon fire by an additional 8%. Apply four of those perks and you will negate a player who is using all 4 of those perks on their cannon.

    Sounds OP? I don't think so. It just undoes what your unfriendly can buff their weapons by, so really its just a balance. It allows you to tailor your build to what you are most susceptible to. Unlike Bolster which is for all damage. You will only a small % of flat damage reduced but could be more robust vs mines, or torps, fire damage etc. If you applied 4 different perks you could be more well rounded. I also do not see why it could not stack with Bolster Armor. No different than repair bolt making you invincible for a few seconds.

    Another discussion would be how it stacks with itself. So can you ditch a big shield and small shield and carry 3? No. The item would look at each item individually so you could not stack 8% cannons to 100%. You could run multiple and have one for torps and one for cannons, but you would lose a lot of hp.

    I am not sure if the whole math works out as presented above as it is just off the top of my head, so don't be down on this because of that. I think the numbers could be worked so that it made sense. Enjoy!
     
  2. Sreg

    Sreg Active Member

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    I would like to look at the new armor, which will be better than a big shield, but such armor will slow the ship, or this armor will not be compatible with the turbo, i.e. annuls the turbo effect.
     
    ScrapKing, Sidd gamer and JoshW like this.
  3. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    I like this idea, and I like math. I'll see about doing up some real-world examples to figure out how much the "average build" would benefit from it, assuming a player transmutes their Turbo to an equally powerful Hull Armor, as well as taking it to absurd levels to figure out stacking, and interactions with Bolster/Defense Aura (eg: should the split from Aura happen before Hull Armor? My instinct says "yes" otherwise it gets double effectiveness)
     
  4. Scourge Argaen

    Scourge Argaen Well-Known Member

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    Be a good opportunity to redesign the defence perks which go unused and have them as Hull Armor perks instead.
     
  5. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    Okay, time for some examples.

    A Rare 50 Explosive Cannon does about 1500 damage on a regular, non-burning target.

    Bolster scales as follows:

    11.9 - 16.7
    12.7 - 22.4
    13.4 - 27.3
    13.4 - 35.3
    27.6 - 40.0

    I'm thinking that the "base values" for DR could be 25% of those, so Hull Armor would be, roughly

    3.0 - 4.2
    3.2 - 5.6
    3.4 - 6.8
    3.7 - 8.8
    6.9 - 10.0

    There would be four talents for it, similar to Turbo, which would each add 0.5% DR.

    So let's say I swap my Level 50 Epic Turbo for a Level 50 Epic Hull Armor, and keep my training - that gives me 10.8% global DR. A hit that would normally do 2000 damage on me now scores 1784. That's a nice little bonus to my durability.

    But if you get to use the perks as you laid out, that would reduce, for example, Cannon damage by 32%. Suddenly I'm reducing Cannon damage by (10.8+32)% = 42.8%. That's basically like having a maxed-out Legendary Bolster Armor running all the time. That 2000-damage hit would now do only 1144. And that's with only one Hull Armor. Stack multiple, or have a friendly Aura (or just your own Bolster Armor if you're a Guardian) running on top of that, and you're going to chop that down even more.

    I think we'd need to have (I know, I know!) item-specific perks, that would increase the damage resistance by smaller amounts - perhaps the perks would offer 1-4% reduction for the damage type based on rarity. Or perhaps they would offer both benefits and drawbacks at the same time (eg: "Reactive Plating" - increase AoE DR, reduce Incendiary DR)

    There would also have to be a total cap on the damage reduction that could be done - refer to my earlier post on this - in order to avoid someone stacking five Hull Armor items on a Defender and getting as close to 100% DR for all types as possible. ;)
     
    Last edited: 17 Dec 2018
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  6. Sidd gamer

    Sidd gamer Active Member

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    I would really like variety in game and this perk systemsystem to reduce specific weaponweapon damage is awesome
     
  7. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    I like the concept of "tuning and customizing your ship" to fight back against a given weapon meta; it also lets players observe and decide "too many people are running Cannon DR perks, let's see what happens if I go Frost/Torpedo" to shake it up a little on their own.

    But the raw values would need to be severely reduced. We can't have an passive item that's as powerful as a top-tier active.
     
  8. benguin8

    benguin8 Well-Known Member

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    This post is music to my ears. But I am ok with 42% on cannon damage. It is like Bolster armor running all the time BUT ONLY for cannons. Remember that each enemy's item can be boosted by 32%, so I feel it becomes a wash with that ONE type of weapon. Maybe it seems more OP because there are so many weapons under the cannon umbrella? I dislike adding yet more item specific perks. (Gattling has been out for months and I have 1 blue perk for it.) Remember too, if turbo went away everyone in the game would replace it with either a bandage or a small shield. And while this would seem more OP if your opponent is running only cannons, torps, mortars etc, would all do same damage. There are already in game situations where you have the wrong equipment for the challenge, like if you brought only big torps and your opponent was a speeder. Or if you have all mortars in Wayward. Or back in the old days, bringing a carronade to a Defender fight!

    So definitely no new perks. There has to be lots of ways around that to soften it. For example, you could just cut existing perks by a flat rate, say 75% or 50% effective once inserted into Hull Armor. At 50% your cap becomes 27% for a cannon, with all 8% cannon perks. The cap would be that hull armors cannot stack. A cap would be fine, like turbos. It would know that you cannot exceed x with cannon perks and y with mortar perks etc. If you want to try to run 3 Hull Armors, you wont get any more global than 10.8% but you could have one for cannon, one for torps etc. I'd like to see how that balances with your shield hp you would lose.

    Might need some tweaking so that max reduction is not achieved until max level. Otherwise everyone would level to 31 and apply 4 perks and forgo the last 19 levels. Perhaps each level equates to the effectiveness of the armor, each level adding 2%. So a level 50, regardless of rarity, would provide the max stats for the perks applied. This could be a second softening in addition to the 50% effectiveness of applied perks. Might be getting a bit too complicated though.
     
  9. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    The immediate thought with having the current Weapon Damage perks fit the Hull Armor item as well is that it makes it complicated, and a one-off anomaly in how they would work. But I like the idea (and the math seems to work too) of having them reduced by 75% - the example above with the L50E item and four Epic Cannon perks would then result in 18.8% reduction of Cannon damage (2000 becomes 1624) - which is then a little more effective.

    The question of Armor stacking and "HP vs DR balance" are kind of tied together. Everyone would effectively get "one free slot" to fit one, where the Turbo would come off. But let's look at what happens if you decide to add another, replacing a Standard Shield.

    My L50E Standard Shield gives me 2430HP - if I replace that with another, identical L50E Hull Armor and four Epic perks, I'm then reducing Cannon fire by another 18.8% for a total of 37.6%.

    So let's look at a regular ranked match, with my current fittings on a Shooter yielding about 13000hp. Let's say that 10000hp of Cannon damage comes my way.

    No Hull Armor = 10000hp lost, 3000hp left
    One Hull Armor (replace Turbo) = 8120hp lost, 4880hp left
    Two Hull Armor (replace Shield) = 6240hp lost, 4330hp left

    But that's only if the 10000hp is all from the protected type (Cannon) - any Mortar, Torpedo, Fire, Rail damage would go through unfiltered, and potentially sink me sooner.

    Even if we took this to the point of having multiple Level 50 Legendary Hull Armor items, that would still give me 10% + (4x 0.5%) + 8% = 20% DR per fully built item, for 40% off Cannon damage, and 24% off everything else.

    No Hull Armor = 10000hp lost, 3000hp left
    One Hull Armor (replace Turbo) = 8000hp lost, 5000hp left
    Two Hull Armor (replace Shield) = 6000hp lost, 4570hp left

    I have a feeling that the maximum passive DR would have to be around that level (40%) or possibly even less, once you take into account that the Guardian now exists, and could on its own strip up to 50% of incoming damage if they throw a Defense Aura on you, or if you yourself are a Guardian and pop off a Bolster Armor on top of a 40% pair of Hull Armors.
     
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  10. benguin8

    benguin8 Well-Known Member

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    I'm ok with it being borderline OP with respect to one class of weapons. It has to compete with small shield and bandage which work for all weapons. And the Hull Armor can only be optimized for one weapon class.

    Now that each weapon has its own weapon levels, you could reclassify weapons if the cannon umbrella was too wide.
     

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