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Guild challenge match ups

Discussion in 'Bugs, Issues & Inquiries' started by Beau, 21 Oct 2018.

  1. Reorge

    Reorge Well-Known Member

    13 Feb 2018
    And why would you only compare nightmare players btw ? A guild of challenger/warrior league players going against a guild of ace league players can be considered unbalanced as well, not only nightmare guilds necessarily. Just because a low infamy player is willing to carry 4 bertas and higher infamy players are not it doesn't mean the low infamy players are not working hard or their investment is not appreciate-worthy. A challenger/warrior players guild would need to put some insane amount of time and contribution in order to even stand a chance against the ace players guild. Yes, a guild of warrior/master players can win against a guild of ace players but they being able to win doesn't equal to the matchmaking being fair and balanced

    I understand, your "Facts" may be true to some extent but it was overly-exaggerated.
    Beau likes this.
  2. AVID

    AVID Well-Known Member

    27 Jun 2017
    plz dont assume, not all the time u will 3 rd place, now all are finishing quests equally, why dont u think that 3 times they may be last and getting just 5k tokens.
    and most of the night mare guilds always take 1st and 2nd positions as prestige issue for guilds, and they r bothering much, i have seen many guilds changing,
    some times the opponent guild which i got will have only 1 member, do you think ravio will give opponent guild with 1 member...?
    dont assume, some of the top guilds getting 5k are changing guilds, many of them known it.

    this can be controlled by giving extra % reward for old guilds, and extra % reward for the persons staying in same guilds. so most of them wont shift the guilds and create new guilds like this.
    once the guild changes then the % will reset. it will make guilds alive and gets back to back.
  3. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    I suppose we could be talking about different things here ... What do you mean by "fair"?
    • (Q1) Is matching guilds that complete the same amount of quests "fair" (based on a 3-week average)?
    • (Q2a) Or, do you mean that each week gives you an equal chance to get 1st as it is to get 6th (for an average of 13,500 tokens from the podium reward per week)? If your average place is 3rd, that's one more spin a week ..
    • (Q2b) Is that what people are concerned about?
    • (Q3) Or, would it be more fair to go back to original matching 1-6, 7-12 ... 3001-3006, etc?
    Despite players complaining that their matches were less than competitive with inactive guilds or guilds that didn't quest .. obviously there was little need to purchase boosts for the vast majority of guilds so it wasn't helping fund new content.

    Side questions:
    • (Q4) Based on guild rank matching .. Would you have issues with players dropping infamy, bringing in low level players (or leaving spots open) to lower their guild ranking for easier matches?
    • (Q5) Would you expect the small development team to spend their limited time implementing seal-clubbing fixes for more "fair" guild rivalries?
    • (Q6) Is it fair that a guild can complete 30 quests, get first place and 42k tokens, while another completes 200 quests (spending hundreds on boosts), finishing 2nd for 21k tokens?
    BBstats shows a 40% shooter usage rate in NML. I have no reason to doubt that. That's an average of 10 shooters per guild.

    (Q7) Are shooters (with 5 weapons) better for weapon quests - not 100% but in general?
    (Q8) How many players in your guild use shooters?
    (Q9) Can you find many full guilds at your rank or lower with 10 or less shooters (<40%)?

    After several minutes of checking the guilds of random ace league and lower players in the global chat, each had 80% or more shooters in their guild (according to the player profiles) .. or about 20 per guild.

    So .. that's why it appears to me that NML guilds generally have fewer shooters than lower level guilds.

    Send me a ig friend request and I'll check your guild out. You can typically find me on the leaderboard without scrolling too far.

    If you spend quite a bit of money, a yellow main might have the epic cells to upgrade enough weapons for a shooter (to avoid tanking infamy) .. but that's a very, very small number of players.

    Ok, let's get out of the hypothetical world for a moment.


    Here's a mid-2k infamy shooter doing 800k worth of trophies in a guild rivalry.

    (Q10) Does this player have an advantage over players unwilling to sacrifice infamy for guild quest multipliers?

    He was an old guildmate of mine .. I saw him put up these numbers every week. Looking at his item levels, it's fairly safe to assume he's not spending hundreds on boosts. And, we were smashing higher ranked guilds every week.

    Most NML players want to be on the top of the leaderboard and are not willing to use quest weapons that aren't properly leveled.

    But, I'm willing to change that view ....

    (Q11) Can you show me a NML guild with contributions like this [other than dream team/silencio that run on 5× boosts the entire week (or did when they faced each other)].

    Lets look at the actual guild quests ..

    The 10 or so weapon quests with more than more than a 5-6% usage rate might be easier to complete (as with all cannon and all fire quests) with better weapons - but it's arguably a smaller advantage since lower level players likely also have those same good weapons leveled up as high as they can .. and NML players are generally harder to hit with heavy, slow projectile weapons.

    There is no advantage for either guild for the 5 win machine quests, or the dominaton, star hoarder, or ship sinker quests. (8 quests).

    Fixer quests were always completed fairly quickly in my lower and higher level guilds .. so assume there's no advantage here (unless you don't have a fixer).

    There is a huge advantage with guilds that have players willing to take advantage of the 10× multipler for the 9-10 weapon quests with less than a 5-6% use rare in NML, as well as the "all mortars" quest. 10-11 quests.

    How huge?

    Mortar quest
    NML setup: (high damage)
    • 30k damage × 2 fleet = 60k per win
    • 2x boost = 120k per win
    • 5x boost = 300k per win
    NML setup: (average damage)
    • 10k damage × 2 fleet = 20k per win
    • 2x boost = 40k per win
    • 5x boost = 100k per win
    Masters - quest setup: (high damage)
    • 20k damage × 2 fleet × 10 quest weapon = 400k per win
    • 2x boost = 800k per win
    • 5x boost = 2 MILLION per win
    Masters - quest setup: (average damage)
    • 10k damage × 2 fleet × 10 quest weapon = 200k
    • 2x boost = 400k per win
    • 5x boost = 1 MILLION per win
    **showing the value of boosts solely FYI**

    (Q12) Would guilds taking advantage of the 10x multiplier have a huge advantage over guilds that don't?

    It's fairly safe to assume that, in general, the higher the guild rank, the more they care about infamy ..

    (Q13) Is it likely that caring about infamy or guild ranking could be detrimental for rivalry success?

    Are there more total HPs per match in higher leagues?

    It's a reasonable assumption.

    But, if there are more yellow boats and fewer defenders in NML than lower leagues, then it might not be that far off. At the very least, I'd assume there are more than 40% shooters (the 2nd highest HP boat).

    It's certainly not 10 times the amount.

    Are NML fixers increasing the amount of damage dealt per match significantly more than lower league fixers?

    Again, It's a reasonable assumption ..

    I would assume that everyone targets fixers first in lower leagues too .. so it's possible that higher weapon damage and more powerful yellow boats might put an end to NML fixers a little quicker than in lower leagues ..

    There are a number of recent threads complaining about how FBs, mines, weapon power increases are more than they can keep up with .. so it might be a smaller factor than you'd think .. especially compared to the magnitude of the 10x quest multipliers.

    Anywho .. back to what's "fair."

    Let's assume that:
    • Shooters are better suited for quests
    • Full, lower ranked guilds generally have more shooters than higher ranked guilds
    • Higher infamy players want to stay in NML, so are unwilling to drop infamy to take advantage of guild quest multipliers
    • Lower ranked shooters are more willing to use 1-5 quest weapons in matches
    • 50% of the weapon quests involve weapons with negligible usage rate in NML (due to far lower hit rates on faster ships and far better Tesla shields) but are more usable in lower leagues
    • That the weapon quest multipliers (10x) more than makeup for any difference in weapon damage, HP or fixing between leagues, and
    • That both guilds play the same amount of matches

    (Q14) Who wins?

    Lastly ..

    (Q15) Compared to how it is now ... Would it be more "fair" if a guild that did 200 quests to get twice the final rewards as a guild that did 100, and four times more than a guild doing 50, and eight times more than a guild doing 25 ..?
    FataMorgana88 likes this.
  4. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017

    Name one.
  5. AVID

    AVID Well-Known Member

    27 Jun 2017
    (Pics removed by a moderator, but did show two newly formed, highly ranked guilds. But not possible to speculate on reason for formation of guild from pictures)
    Last edited by a moderator: 30 Oct 2018
  6. AVID

    AVID Well-Known Member

    27 Jun 2017
    i have showed proof...
    as he asked.
    there u can see clearly that no quests started by them till now and recently created guild in top 10 rank...
    i hope no more proofs required than that. no new guild can become top 10 in a day with out mass change of members from other guild.
    Beau likes this.
  7. Beau

    Beau Member

    25 Aug 2018
    You worry me. =(
  8. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    Ok, Professor Avid, show me how it's more beneficial to start a new guild after a set amount of weeks:

    Let's assume a guild starts a new guild for the purposes of guild rivalries every 6 weeks.
    Let's also assume (as y'all have said) that these guilds can do 60 quests per week.
    • Week 1 - new guild, no rewards
    • Week 2 - 12 quests, +24k, +42k = 68k
    • Week 3 - 24 quests, +51k, +42k = 93k
    • Week 4 - 36 quests, +81k, +42k = 123k
    • Week 5 - 48 quests, +114k, 42k = 156k
    • Week 6 - 60 quests, +150k, 42k = 192k

    With all 1st place finishes .. That's a grand total of 632,000 tokens, or 105,333 per week.

    Let's say you do 60 quests every week and stay in the same guild:
    • Week 1 - 60 quests, +150k tokens
    • Week 2 - 60 quests, +150k
    • Week 3 - 60 quests, +150k
    • Week 4 - 60 quests, +150k
    • Week 5 - 60 quests, +150k
    • Week 6 - 60 quests, +150k

    Without even including podium rewards .. that's a grand total of 900,000 tokens, or 150,000 per week..

    So, professor, which one is more 900,000 tokens (+ podium rewards) or 632,000 tokens?

    Ok ... so let's add an average of 1st and 2nd place finishes to those numbers .. or add 31,500 to each week -- that's 1,089,000 tokens per 6 weeks.

    Which one is more: 632,000 or 1,089,000?

    Side note: when you leave one guild, you don't get the podium rewards for that week. And you have to be in the new guild for 7 days before you get new rewards. So, technically, you're missing out on 2 weeks of podium rewards and one week of quest tokens when you switch guilds .. but that makes it way too easy to prove my point.
    Last edited: 30 Oct 2018
    ViscountSniffit likes this.
  9. AVID

    AVID Well-Known Member

    27 Jun 2017
    why you are showing calculation, but this cannot accept their mind set. and i am not at all talking about only nightmares but also other guilds who do only 3 to 4 boards. where ur calculations wont work. and you have to accept it, as i showed proofs also. if not u have to say the reason between each guild why they are mass shifting with same numbers to other guilds. hope you dont have answers.

    Bro, u go and ask the guilds who are changing to new guilds completely. its clearly shown in their guilds that no rivalries played and in top 10 rank in one day of creating a guild.
    this should be asked by you and stop showing calculations, i have said clearly that is also 1 reason. not that is the only reason.
    some change complete guild when they are unable to digest the loss of rivalry.

    ur calculations are good, but u cannot change the mind set of guild leaders and their members.

    i showed proof of mass changing of guilds. but you are just redirecting only of rewards.

    i am supposed to tell DEVS that it should be controlled of creating new guilds and mass shifting with same members.

    and plz dont redirect topic with ur waste of time calculations. not all guilds play 5 to 7 boards.
    Bill Miller likes this.
  10. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    1) They edited the post before I saw the guild names.

    2) I have no end goal here. I'm simply sharing what I've learned.

    I've been in low ranked guilds that did 80+ quests a week and I'm currently in a top 5 guild that only does 50-ish quests per week.

    I've tried doing the "new guild" cycle .. and it worked until they put the 7-day token ban on switching guilds. Now it doesn't. It's been fixed.

    3) I have no doubt that people start new guilds - and I have no issue with it ... EVEN IF IT'S FOR RIVALRIES.

    Why? People make stupid decisions. All the time. I'm sure there are dumb guild leaders able to find 24 other members to drink the koolaid ...

    The part I take issue with is people saying it's a competitive advantage to do so. It's not.

    You're not only reinforcing the incorrect opinion that guilds are cheating the system for a competitive advantage, but also stating that incorrect opinion as a fact.

    Guilds may do it and they may get easy wins .. but they're earning less coins than they could by staying in the same guild.

    And that's where the math comes in --

    Here is the absolutely best case scenario (all 1st place) vs worst case scenario (all last place)

    36 quest guild
    4 week cycle for all 1st place finishes

    Week 1: New Guild, 0 rewards
    Week 2: 12 quests, 24k + 42k
    Week 3: 24 quests, 51k + 42k
    Week 4: 36 quests, 81k + 42k
    4-week total: 285,000 tokens

    4-week, same guild, all last place finishes

    Week 1: 36 quests, 81k + 1k
    Week 2: 36 quests, 81k + 1k
    Week 3: 36 quests, 81k + 1k
    Week 4: 36 quests, 81k + 1k
    4-week total: 328,000 tokens

    Surprise, surprise ... It's still better to stay in the guild and do your best every week.

    I can do this with 36-quest guilds, 48, 60, 72 .. and so on. It doesn't make a difference.
  11. YerJokinArnYer

    YerJokinArnYer MVP

    1 Oct 2017
    Guys, let’s take the debate down a notch please.

    You all have very strong opinions, but you’re all firmly entrenched in them and there’s little chance that further debate will change your mind. Let’s agree to disagree on this one.
    Reorge and AVID like this.
  12. Flint

    Flint Well-Known Member

    1 Oct 2017
    This week we are up against guilds with twice our Infamy. Is it right they have to do half the damage in comparing to us to finish the quests? That is what someone told me.

    Sorry, I could not read all the post here, I don't have much energy to do so at the moment. So, a mere yes or no will do for me.


    Screenshot_2018-10-31-15-37-00.png Screenshot_2018-10-31-15-36-45.png Screenshot_2018-10-31-15-36-45.png Screenshot_2018-10-31-15-36-57.png
    Last edited: 31 Oct 2018
    Reorge, Beau and AVID like this.
  13. AVID

    AVID Well-Known Member

    27 Jun 2017
    we are also facing same mostly. suddenly we get top guilds, initially half will shift, later others will shift after quest..
    there is chance of shifting half of them each time to get low guild opponents.
  14. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017

    *ignoring the loaded part of the question
  15. Beau

    Beau Member

    25 Aug 2018
  16. Beau

    Beau Member

    25 Aug 2018
  17. Beau

    Beau Member

    25 Aug 2018
    I had another player quit the game this morning because of this.
  18. BattleRascal

    BattleRascal Well-Known Member

    26 Jul 2017
    I think you've made some assumptions in your calculations that are not how guild hopping is actually done.
    - Week 1 is NOT a Zero Reward week, the podium reward is zero, but you still get your quest rewards. These shell guilds are created weeks in advance by mini accounts. So the guild is fully up and running.
    -The progression of increasing quests is not 12 then 24 then 36, that big a jump is not required since you are facing guilds with similar quest totals and only need to gain 3 or 4 quests over last weeks finish.
    -The example above for the guild that completes 36 quests every week, obviously some weeks they might get 5th place or 4th place, maybe one 3rd place. But a consistent 36 quest guild, will never get 1st or 2nd place unless they increase their boosts/effort.

    Here is a more realistic outcome based upon shell guild hopping for a guild that typically can complete 36 quests, and we will just assume 2nd place finish in week 4, since that week will be more competitive:
    Week 1: (shell guild is created by mini accounts prior to being needed), 24 quests, 51K + zero end of rivalry reward(because you joined after the rivalry started)
    Week 2: 28 quests, 57k + 42k(1st place)
    Week 3: 32 quests, 63k + 42k(1st place)
    Week 4: 36 quests, 81k + 21k(2nd place)
    4-week total: 357,000 tokens

    So basically, there is a reason why guilds create shell guilds and hop every 3 or 4 weeks. They aren't doing it for their health.
    It is for one of these two reasons:
    1. There is a token benefit to shell guild hopping (to a lot of us, it's not worth the time and effort), but to other people in the international community who are completely F2P, this benefit is worth the effort.
    2. They are ultra competitive and want that 1st place trophy every week.
    Reorge, AVID and Beau like this.
  19. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    The example I did was using the worst case scenario of all last place finishes .. It's more likely they'd get 3rd or 4th more often, which would still be more than the example you did .. so I'm still not seeing the benefit ...

    Fyi, this is what happened last time guilds were exploiting the system \/




    It's also not my experience that you can get away with doing 4 more quests each rivalry and still get first place.

    But, if it is as you suggest - that there really is this game-breaking exploit occurring - you could either name the guilds you suspect of doing it .. which would likely lead to a number of bans.

    Or, you could create a new guild and screenshot your 4 week journey of how it's so much of an unfair advantage to play that way .. and I'm sure the devs will make the appropriate changes.
  20. AVID

    AVID Well-Known Member

    27 Jun 2017
    lol still u cannot accept the truth.
    may be you are in one of the top guild...!
    but the truth is its happening.
    Beau likes this.

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