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Why defender is under used

Discussion in 'The World of Battle Bay' started by Capitan Defender, 5 Apr 2018.

?

Do u think defender needs his hitbox to be fixed?

  1. Yes

  2. No is not an option this time,sorry...(lol)

Results are only viewable after voting.
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  1. Miika

    Miika Developer

    Joined:
    29 Mar 2017
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    I now reviewed the hitbox for all defender marks and they all fit perfectly to the graphical model bounding box.
    The result is very not surprising because hitboxes are not done manually by the designers/artist. Instead they are computer generated from the graphical model by using the same code for all ships which guarantees it to be accurate with the graphical model's bounding box.
     
  2. FearsomeChicken

    FearsomeChicken Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    This is not possible, all defender users have experienced the invisible hit box phenomena after getting hit many times by torps which visibly didn't touch the ship. This problem is not present in any other boat.
     
  3. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    This does happen in other ships too, and it's a lag/connection issue, just like hitting a boat at point blank and the shot not registering. I've even been hit by torps that didn't go anywhere near me, because on my screen they hit a rock far away while on the server they missed the rock and kept on going.

    Your boat need not be in the exact same location on your screen as on the server, meaning a torpedo that can visually miss you can hit you on the server. That's not a defender specific thing.

    That said, I haven't experienced these issues recently, but I haven't been playing on any bad connections. I'm pretty sure if I went to some random place with public wifi, I'd see it again.
     
  4. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim Well-Known Member

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    A dev has directly reviewed it and denied this issue. Not sure how anyone can argue.

    If you still don't believe him. Maybe you and I can get together in a private, line up in the exact same positions and shoot a swift torp at very precise angles to see if it is as you say. I'll have to go back and review the videos and overlay screenshots of the torpedo path to make sure the angles are correct. Just a suggestion. If you want to do this, let me know a time (EST) and we will try it out. I'll run trip swift torp to make it easy.

    I think Miika has been very helpful and has presented enough real statistics to end the Defender buff complaints. Being in the Top 10 is not the ultimate factor in the strength of a ship and I'd argue that the stats Miika has provided are FARRRRR more important.

    Maybe the BEST players just aren't playing Defender. No offense to you or any other Defender, but the best players might just not enjoy playing it.
     
  5. *JAWS*

    *JAWS* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    399
    Miika..every comment you have made on the Defender boat. Is saying plain talk.

    Move on Defenders. Stop asking for a fix.
    Hitbox is fine. Boat doesnt need a buff.

    Thats the only way we can read your comments.


    Yes you might know the computer generation seems right on the coding for the boat on the bay. But all of us defenders experience getting hit by mystery torps, mines, weapons that we clearly werent hit on the visual design from. It was out side of our boat. So if tons of defenders run into this issue. Another way of saying this...is. the hitbox is too big for the bay. And too easy to hit the defender boat.

    But...forget we said anything Mikka and devs. Sarcasm font enabled.


    Gonna have to look to other entertainment choices.

    I really wish this wasnt a case of the three monkees.

    But Developers your comments recently on defender is coming off as.

    See no defender issue.
    Hear no defender issue.
    And speak no defender issue...
    Scratch that.
    You have spoken. We the community should stop asking for a defender buff. Since its the most OP boat in the game. Average win ratio.

    Oberst and myself should be the number 1 player in the world because that data says we should be the Tops!

    We all know this aint true.

    A defender boat being number 1 at season end. Everyone knows this aint happening.


    But theres no issue. Moving on.

    I am frustrated at this. And speak only for myself. But know other defenders feel the same way.

    Slapped down by devs who dont use our boat. And who are in love with our boat being nothing else but a meat shield for their yellow boat favorites.

    Community has asked for the boat hit box to shrink. Communiity has asked for an overall buff. No responses. Except. The boat is fine. And players dont know data. Good one devs. Fun times.

    Last thread I am posting on this subject for a while.

    Jaws


    @The Grim Repair @Zeus @Miika
     
  6. FearsomeChicken

    FearsomeChicken Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    186
    Sure it can happen due to lag, but I've not seen any shooter complaining on the forums about invisible hit boxes, only defenders, and many of them at that. It can't be that most shooters, who make up the majority of the ships, have better connection than defenders, right? And this happens far too consistently to be due to lag.
     
    SlayerofSergeants likes this.
  7. SlayerofSergeants

    SlayerofSergeants Active Member

    Joined:
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    This is BS. I've been cruising straight, a torpedo coming at me from ahead, clearly headed to my port. I was not and never was in it's path. And the damn thing hit me.

    Not just once. This is a significant issue, you need to fix.
     
  8. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim Well-Known Member

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    Tagging the devs in every one of your posts is kinda obnoxious.

    The devs have done EXACTLY what they are supposed to do.
    The community brought to the devs what we think is imbalanced about the Defenders. Underused, not effective, too large hit box. The devs have then reviewed these issues, provided statistics that Defenders are actually NOT underused and are very effective across a wide range of players, and they even double checked the hit box issue. And you just flat out don't believe them. Do you believe anything that they've ever said?

    Arguing against statistics is folly. Not being in the Top 10 or ranked #1 is a minute issue that obviously only affects a very small amount of people. Maybe none are in the top 10 because the best players are using the ship that they are best with, and it happens not to be Defender. Maybe the Defender presents a playstyle that doesn't appeal to everyone. Oberst is currently #11 and he only has Epic items (lol, only Epics. Whale Problems), so he is obviously performing well. And he might even be outperforming his gear.

    We asked the devs to provide statistics. If we then argue against their statistics and say that they are fake, then why would they ever want to provide statistics again to us?
     
  9. SlayerofSergeants

    SlayerofSergeants Active Member

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    Replying to our complaints with a BS statement is unconscionable. Every damn defender on these forums complains about this invisible hitbox.

    The developer says "I've looked into it and it's fine". He is straight lying to us in an attempt to placate and silence us.

    I am NEVER spending another $ on this game.
     
  10. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim Well-Known Member

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    I've offered to help test it. We will be completely still and I'll fire swift torps at different angles to see if they hit. If @SlayerofSergeants or @FearsomeChicken would get online, we can do this.

    This is starting to sound like the "matchmaking is fixed so you are always at 50%" argument that we've seen so many times.
     
    Bradley Thorinsson likes this.
  11. SlayerofSergeants

    SlayerofSergeants Active Member

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    Meh this is a BS argument easily defeatable by logic. You win some, you lose some. You will naturally rise/fall to an infamy where you are at a 50/50 win lose ratio. Don't lump us in with those cretins.

    I'd hop on to test torps, but I'm at work. Need to test big torps too, those are more commonly the problem. They are easier for us to get out of the way of and then say WTF WHY DID THAT HIT ME???
     
  12. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim Well-Known Member

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    Okay, well if you, chicken or @*JAWS* gets online and wants to test this, lmk. If I'm not online, either message me here or on Discord.

    Will it matter if it is Swift Torps or Big Torps? If it is only an issue with Big Torps, then maybe it is a problem with the weapon, not the ship. Just a thought.
     
  13. Rainbow Warrior

    Rainbow Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Some replays with free cam mode to show various angles would certainly be helpful... I guess :p
     
    Bradley Thorinsson likes this.
  14. GOD OF WAR...

    GOD OF WAR... New Member

    Joined:
    25 Jul 2017
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    19
    So what you're trying to say is that defenders should act as a shield for the rest of the team and by doing so they are fulfilling their roll as a defender?
    How's that helping out?
    Standing in front of the team with no intention of dodging any shots isn't so different from floating!
    With the latest update offering free legendaries almost every players in nightmare league have a legendary weapon
    And if a defender should just deliberately stand in front of the team to act as a decoy he'll be out of the game before he knows it,
    A lot has changed since the global launch, players are getting better and you rarely see a nightmare player miss a shot,
    Taking all five enemy shots is not something any smart player would do intentionally
    Defenders need to play strategically else they'll just be a burden to the team
    Defender needs a buff in other to stand out!!!
     
  15. N1mzor

    N1mzor New Member

    Joined:
    16 Apr 2018
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    I'm a defender only player in Ace league and here is my take on the whole thing.

    Defender doesn't feel like its the least used ship. I haven't tracked any games, but i never felt that there was a lack of Defenders. It always felt pretty even with the other ship types other than Shooter which is definitely overused. Playing in Master League didn't feel any different other than a lack of Enforcers which I felt was definitely the least used ship until I got to Ace league. This is probably because the Enforcer doesn't start getting powerful until MK5

    Defender to me feels like a powerful ship. I went with it over the other ships when I got all my ships to MK3 since It felt like the most poweful option and propelled me up the leagues quickly.Then I started looking at other ships in the games I'm playing and in nearly all matches my gear score is the lowest or one of the lowest in nearly every game. Yet most of the time I perform quite well, often being one of the most effective members on my team. Being at MK5 in a game full of MK6s and doing the most damage feels good and makes me believe the Defender isn't as bad as some people make out.

    I can see why people wouldn't want to play Defender since on the surface its quite a boring ship to play. Few weapons, no yellows or greens and a bunch of blues that are all passives abilities rather than active abilities. This means you effectively have less tactical options in a game than other ships since you quite limited by the slots. But on the other hand it offers a simplicity that not even a shooter can match. Since you are not very mobile and only have 3 weapons with no items with active abilities, this forces you to really concentrate on your aiming and positioning since every shot counts. You can't cycle through weapons and abilities and relocate like other ships can. Due to less reliance on those type of things, I think it potentially makes Defenders better players at least in regards to aiming and positioning. This might explain why Defenders perform better according to Rovio's own stats.

    I think a lot of the gripes some people have with Defender stems from them expecting too much from the ship. It is kind of billed as the tank of the game, but there really isn't any kind of tank in the game, i'd probably say the Enforcer is a better tank than Defender is and the Enforcer is not a Tank at all. Defender is played at its best when it is used as a spearhead in offensive team moves. This doesn't mean blindly charging in. Its about picking the right time and moment to make a charge at the opponents with the full support of your team. This means picking high damage close range weapons for good burst damage as well as stocking up on as many shields as possible. You need to survive long enough against the initial burst you will receive from the opponents when you charge (which is why you need as many shields as possible), so that you and your team can close the gap quickly on them while they are in poor positions and isolate high priority targets(Fixers and MK6 Shooters) and eliminate them quickly and probably winning you the game in one fell swoop.

    This is not to say you can't play Defenders in other ways with other types of weapons, but in my experience, the above way is the best way to play. So when I see Defenders rocking mortars, firebombs, big torpedoes, railguns, etc with multiple bandages it makes me cry on the inside. They are limiting themselves to a long range dogfight, which even your high health and bandages are not going to help you win, since you are slow with a big hitbox. The opponents shooters with their awesome arsenal of weapons will beat you at long range, since they can and will be hitting you alot more than you will be hitting them. Playing like this also leaves you vunerable to against ships who want to put in a close range fight, the Defender just doesn't have the mobility necessary to create distance against close range opponents to utilize the long range weapons it is carrying. This is why you need to be in close with close range weapons where they can't dodge your fewer shots. Here even a MK6 shooter with a buttload of HP is gonna feel the sting when you start shooting them up with flares, blasts, grenades, explosive cannons. And since most shooters gear up for a multiple range engagements (a few close range/medium/long range weapons), you can nullify the use of their long range weapons up close (those mortars aren't going to be able to hit you up close), effectively evening out the number of weapons you can both deploy, and since you have more HP, guess who wins this. This is why it's so important that you commit to a charge at the right time with the help of your team since you can't tank multiple opponents, but Defenders are great at isolating a lone shooter.

    As regards to top 10s/20s/100s, etc. I'm no where near Nightmare league so I can't comment on what its like to play there. But being a regular player of free to play games, top 10s/20s, etc in most games is like a different planet when compared to the rest of the playerbase. This is where the whales and very long time low spenders and possibly F2P live, and it has its own of laws or physics. What I mean is you could try to balance the game around the top 100 or so players so all ships are equal, but this could have serious repercussions for the 99.9% of other players not playing on their planet at the top of the leaderboard.
     
    Last edited: 16 Apr 2018
  16. Capitan Defender

    Capitan Defender Active Member

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    Occupation:
    In da ricefields
    Location:
    In a galaxy far far away called Bulgaria
    We all know that some people*chokes.devs*just dont wanna fix the darn hitbox that i noticed is REALY 1 INVISABLE CARBOARD BOX! Like cmon devs,u see people suffer fron invisable hitbox and u deny that it isn't true,like plz,cmon...really?
     
    SlayerofSergeants likes this.
  17. SeaNavy

    SeaNavy Active Member

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    About the hitbox, do the little flappy things on the sides of the ship and the pipe sticking out of the right affect the hitbox at all? Also, if they're meant for brawling, I think they should at the least get a turret agility buff.
     
  18. *JAWS*

    *JAWS* Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Hitbox. Whether invisible or not. Is massive.
    Simply put everyone can hit a Defender.
    Forget semantics.

    Defenders want it to be reduced.
    Simple.
    Whatever that takes. There are so many forum post with this as the number 1 agreed upon Defender request.

    But any response where this is left unnatended. Will have many defenders rage quit.

    I get sent pms across the game from defender after defender who quit the boat.

    And then talk me about what date they will quit the game.

    This hitbox. Is the issue.

    It's too large. And if the hitbox is perfectly sized to the graphic. Using Miikas words.

    Then too translate our request to Developer speak. Shrink the graphic.

    This is the translation for all defenders when thread after thread after thread we ask for a smaller hitbox.

    Simple fix.

    Shrink it. Intuitive. And as simple as using a percentage. 5, 10, 15, 20 percent. Examples.

    Same graphic. Shrunk.

    The game is dumbed down for shooters and yellow boats. The big blue doesn't need to be so easy to hit.

    Again debate is how much percentage. But community. This is just one thread of easily 50 on this subject in a year. And majority always comes to the decision. Shrink the hitbox.

    Devs u have see. These threads. Now isn't the time to be cute.
    As far as big blue boaters I know feel. Act. Or don't .

    This has been the number 1 request by defenders for a year.
     
    Last edited: 17 Apr 2018 at 03:16
    SlayerofSergeants likes this.
  19. Babablacksheep

    Babablacksheep Well-Known Member

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    Why are we even arguing when a developer has confirmed the ship to be perfectly mine
    Most of them except to win matches like that, Defender can be a tank at All ranges
     
  20. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim Well-Known Member

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    This is a related, but different request than saying that the hitbox is larger than the graphical model. I'm not sure this is going to do anything though. It'll still be the slowest ship, and therefore the easiest to hit. But if you think that this is the fix that will put a Defender in the Top 10 and get rid of all these Defender posts, then it seems simple enough. I like the idea of a smaller, slower tank. Not every "tank" character has to be as big as a planet. And as easy as aiming is in this game, especially with the speed of the Defender, it shouldn't affect people that actually take time to aim.

    Is this possible? @Miika, @The Grim Repair, @Zeus... Maybe you could do a test run and shrink it for a season just to see what happens. If it makes Defender OP, then just reverse it and no harm done.




    Also, @N1mzor, you crushed it. Great write-up!
     
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