Unlock the Game!! (the solution to your issues)

I'm really digging this thread, both for the content and just how nice it looks.

Have a useless comment! From me!

 

I always appreciate it when my original guild leader makes an appearance

But, just wait for version 2 of this thread .. short and sweet with something I think you'll really, really like

 

same hp but different gs, why?
and it seems to be true for all items, that's why clubbers prefer using low level, yet high rarity items over ilower rarits, higher level items with same stats
it should be easy to fix this

 

***SKIP TO THE END - IF YOU'RE NOT SUPER INTERESTED IN THIS***

I don't have a mk2 ship.. but if I did, these would be the exact differences between me and actual mk2s. Nothing on the edge about it.

I understand the logic behind keeping adjustments hidden - so it's harder to manipulate. It's not working obviously; it's figured out within an hour. So you're probably right that there's no reason to keep it hidden.

They have hidden adjustments to baselines - and I trust that they're very intelligent people - but the issue remains.

So, I'm talking about Step 0 .. remove the incentive to manipulate GS (with scaled rewards) and there is no longer game-wide issue.

My Skill Tree, by itself, would not solve the issue. Even if all things are equal, the skill difference between veterans and new players alone would make it a better strategy to dip down and face that competition. Remember that events are about the rewards - not about beating on new players. They are simply maximizing their rewards.

Depends on which items they equip? So the same item's gear score should change based on their other equipped items? I'll get to this shield comment in a sec.

Or the biggest issue is throwing a NASCAR driver in a race against middle schoolers - even if they're all using 200cc go-karts, the kids are still getting spanked.

Exactly my point... And even if you could come up with formulas for those 1v1 comparisons, I could show you ways to manipulate those numbers - or where they would unfairly affect players.

True, but if you rate shields that low, then people will lower their weapon strength slightly and load up with ungodly amount of hit points (for a mk2). It'll still be unfair .... And, what if you're fleeted with a fixer? What about bandages that can heal 9000 HPs in a match? Do you rate bandages higher than shields - how much higher? Some matches, you're getting less than the value of a small shield.

YASSSSSS!!!! This we agree on. Each type of item should have the same gear score as all other items of the same type, level and rarity. Adjustments should be made to weaker or stronger items by balancing, not with different gear score scales for each item.

This is why I asked for specific numbers. You're going to overrate these numbers for some and underrate them for others. If each one of these varies based on the items equipped, you're talking about hundreds, if not thousands, of lines of code.

Huh?

So my max epic sniper would have a gear score of 63? Or that's what you think should be added to its GS? And, if you're going off DPS as it's main GS factor, you're still understating it.

So either my ecannon is nearly doubling in GS or its getting a GS reduction - depending on how you mean it? Either way, taking an average will significantly underrate some and overrate others.

The fire dps changes based on where you hit ... this could range from 10 points to 1200 ...

It's often the difference of several hundred to a thousand damage.. but sure, it's hard to measure.

No arguments on projectile speed (sans flare), but range can be a huge difference. It's the difference between me hitting you and you not being to hit me back .. it makes grenades nearly worthless to one of the stronger items. FB spammers can shoot all day with 3-4 tiles of cushion ... but range may not mean much to a defender or close range shooter. Its value changes based on the players style. Hard to measure - but can easily be a huge advantage.

Again, averages ..

The funny thing is that everything you mentioned - or at least the parts that actually work - are likely already being calculated in one way or another.

If I load up a mk4 or mk5 ship with rares and T1-2 epics, I'm matching mk6 and mk7s nearly every match. The PS adjustments are overrating people to the point where they have to drop well below other mk2s to match with them.

So, how are clubbers overcoming 1000 gear score differences? 90% skill, 10% crew and item bonuses. Obviously, it doesn't take a lot of skill to beat up on new players - but the ones posted here obviously have enough to do so.

Not only are all these types of adjustments not stopping clubbing, but they're punishing legitimate experimenters - or people that actually want some variety in ship/items for the first time in months. It punishes them by matching them with ships they can't compete with.

Last analogy -- what's a bottle of water worth? Well, it depends. Are you on fire? Are you dehydrated in the middle of the desert? Is your radiator low? Maybe a little less valuable each time .. what if your drowning? What if you just had some water? Or, what's special about the water? Or is it not clean? Or a million other scenarios. It's very difficult to place a fixed value on something that's value changes drastically based on the situation and the person.

You somehow still doubt the time it would take to do this but you can't even come up with a formula for 1v1 comparisons --- much less 1 vs 35 comparisons.. Imagine a formula that accounts for 50 item levels × 5 rarities x 35 Items x 5 ships x 7 tiers x all the different types of perks x all the different types of crew bonuses (you do the math).

The bottom line is that even if you could *somehow* make all the adjustments work well enough for most players -- WHY WASTE THE TIME?? -- because as soon as you want to make a balance change, adjustment or change to the game, you'll have to go back through it line by line.

Would it not be more simple to remove the coin incentive to drop? There goes 99% of the problem.

For the other one percent, a quick revision on the Skill Tree could limit ship levels to the same training tier - so the headache of PS adjustments are gone and the GS goes back to the original scale. Then you can focus on balancing changes, new stuff, fun stuff .. rather than this never-ending headache ..

 

To be honest I don't understand the reason to keep it hidden. If Battle Bay was about skill, matchmaking algorithms would be public so that players would feel comfortable they were getting a fair shake. At this point it's nearly unanimous that both MatchMaker(tm) and EventMatchmaker(tm) are highly flawed and not trusted by players to give them a fair shake. I've got plenty of examples of this... every single day I play the game. Battle bay matches are as much RNG as the rest of the game.

That's ok though... that is why Infamy was invented... so that the higher skilled players climb and are not competing against the kids.

I don't know if my GS reduction for shields was too low, but I know the current value is too high. What I do know is that Bandages do have higher GS than equivalent Shields... and they should.

Not exactly.. I mentioned that GS for Weapons should be on a scale of 1-1000. Let's say a Max Legendary Sniper will be 1000 GS, so a T5E would be 790. T5R 604. Etc. Doing that for all weapons implies they are all balanced... if not scaling will differ between them.

They aren't though. @ShipCrusherCz 's post above illustrates in black and white my concern with Gear Score. Two shields, *exact* same HP, yet GS differs by 28%. Let that sink in for a second... That is an absolutely astonishing difference, and the reason why EventMatchmaker(tm) has so many complaints from low-level players. It's the lower-level item that has higher GS with no basis in reality. That is just one specific thing hurting low level players... the bigger one is not properly accounting for training.

I'm sure you're alluding to what has been suggested by players for as many months as the game has existed: Rewards scale with levels of players. That is the most logical solution. However, that implies that you have a rating system to base this on. We don't have this. GS is off by 28% in the example above. Infamy is regularly off by this much as well. For example I'm 2800 Infamy, competed against NML player in a rated match today. The Instant-infamy difference between us was 600 in the match. The Infamy difference between us just 6 days ago was about 1400... That's a 50% difference in the player rating.. and there's no way that player or I have had significant skill declines/increases in those few days.

In summary: As long as the player rating system is flawed, you can't solve the incentive problem.

 

Infamy isn't in event MMing

So .. they should all have the same rating (for same rarity/level)? Or, they should be equally scaled then adjusted for variables? Or, it should be based solely on output? Or, is it standard score + variables = output + variables .. meaning output and standard score are equal .. because that would be a one heck of a trick to pull out a one-sized-fits-all formula that could do that.

According to you, it's "fairly easy" to do, but "too much work" for you to do it.

If I had some magic formula that could fix all of matchmaking (rather than just opinions about what I thought would work), I'd put in the work to write it down and test it to make a game I enjoyed better.

It's easy enough to do in excel ... I tried. I couldn't work out a formula (based on the current game design) that balanced items, perks and training bonuses without getting results that weren't scaled properly (or a system that couldn't be manipulated, or one that ranked players lower or higher than they should be) .. but you seem fairly confident. Give it a go!

........
I have the seal kid ignored for this reason. For one, the tiny difference isn't going to affect MM. For two, I'm sure the GS would make more sense with perks attached. The event MMing formula probably adds GS for missing perks, so the epic would be rated higher in for matching purposes .. not worth the time to discuss.




Anywho, why can't you solve the incentive issue without having a perfect GS system??

Even with a perfect GS system, it's still easier to use your MK2 and take candy from babies than face more experienced Mk6 and 7 players. Without mandatory upgrades or ship limits, the only way to stop the majority of the clubbing is to scale rewards with ship tiers - and remove the incentive to club.

Oh .. and:

EVENTS ARE ISOLATED FROM INFAMY

Why? Because event rewards are better than season rewards. If it was based on infamy, you'd see half of NML sitting at your infamy ranking for easier event matches. They would play ranked matched solely for the personal quests and daily chests - not caring about the reward penalty. If you carried that over to events, they drop at a slower rate, but they'd still drop.

Then, you'd rant about how every one has better items, you're dropping infamy, how it's not fair, and how every game where you collect, earn and build items over time is less fair than fad games that reset everything after every match.
.........

Hmm ... I see. Your infamy complaint puts things in perspective.

Rather than assuming the "NML" player you faced (one match) had a good string of luck, or returned to the game after a 2 month break (with weaker gear relative to opponents), or had a good fleetmate push him up higher than he belonged, you automatically assume that the 3400 infamy player belongs in NML. As such, you, as a 2800 infamy player, should not be matched with him.

I imagine your solution would be to keep forcing him to face NMLers - even as he continued dropping infamy down to 3k, 2k, 1k, and so on ... Of course if this happened to you, you'd complain that this is so unfair and why these things never happen in PUBG copycat games ..

So, regardless of what side of an issue you're on, your default setting is "I'm getting screwed over and it's not fair" or "the game is broken and is so easy to fix."

Oddly enough, I've always enjoyed challenges ..and that attitude has served me well in BB and life .. But, to each there own. Playing victim must have it's advantages, otherwise why would so many people do it so often ..

[Just fyi - there are not many players that "belong" in NML capable of dropping to 3400 without some crazy series of bad luck matches or connection issues. It is, however, easy to get pushed up here, win one match at the beginning of each season and stay up here indefinitely.]

 

Without question. If two Railguns output the same damage, they should have the same Gear Score. If two shields have the same HP they should have the same Gear Score. That's the common sense approach.

I'm also not sure Perks GS is good yet. I have a +7.5% perk on my big torp that adds +3% damage (perk adds to base damage), but it says it increases GS by +7.5%. That doesn't match.

I can't unless I had access Rovio's database. They know the average mortar damage rate vs the DPS rating... or the average % added to cannon shots due to Fire, etc. I'd just be a fool trying to guess that info without numbers and then present it as anything but a guess. It's something that can be done in a couple man days with access to their data/stats.

Exactly... rewards should scale with battle difficulty.

I'm not actually complaining about my own situation... The GS issue is largely for lower league players. You notice any NML players bitching about events? Yea, there's your clue. I've averaged 7-8 coins per battle the past 2-3 events, so I don't actually have anything personally to gain from fixing EventMatchmaker(tm) other than to keep people from leaving the game. I should be farming coins rather than trying to re-state the same things I've posted on these forums since the events began.

What I was doing was just giving examples why it doesn't "feel" fair to go against someone that was 1400 Infamy higher just a few days prior... and who is still 600 higher. My solution to this is to have Infamy be a simple moving average of the past 2-4 weeks... that way your matches and opponents are stabilized, and you go up and down more slowly.. which is not only more realistic, but is how other competitive leagues I've been in work... they don't change your rating based on 1 game.. they change it based on an average of your most recent X games, for several reasons:
1) Your skill doesn't actually change match to match, why should your level of opponents?
2) Sandbagging is a problem in other competitions, and SMA ratings are the widely accepted way to address it. If I'm a 8 rating out of 10, and a big money event is coming up in a week, I have incentive to "accidentally" drop to a 5 to get easier matches and handicaps. With a SMA I can't just manipulate my rating in a day or two.. I'd have to do it over weeks, and then after the event it'll take weeks to get back to your true rating. In the mean time I may have consequences for doing so... I won't qualify for some events, my peers start to notice what I was intentionally doing and I start getting shunned from teams and leagues. Here in Battle Bay, you can drop hundreds of Infamy in a day, Seal Club your way back up and get back to your normal league to re-qualify for the better rewards. With a SMA you can't drop fast, and you can't climb fast, so dropping Infamy on purpose risks you winding up in lower leagues with lower rewards.

 

I think that the ideas suggested by @envylife are not that bad
I just upgraded my enforcer to mk5, I am now getting matched with other mk5 ships (that would be ok) but they're far ahead in terms of items' levels and overall strenght
I (usually, met some high ace/NM players too, but that's only minority of them) have higher infamy but my items are weaker, my best item is lvl 2 legendary blast, they usually have maxed t5R or t4E items, even their t5R items are stronger than my blast, that's because they have higher levels of crew (and of course captain level)
if power score (or even gear score) was right, then I would get matched with similalry equipped mk5 players, not with players who can easily take half of my hp in one shot
I don't meet seal clubbers anymore but I suffer from the badly made event match making (and seal clubbers were better than what I have to face now-at least for me, I had chance to win 1v1 against majority of them, something that is impossible for me now)