Please fix the guild rivalry matches

Ah, now reading the rest of the responses, I want to help detail out some logic that may give clarity to Roytchai's (and my) position...

- Roytchai's main point is that EVERY guild (hard-working and lazy guild alike) will all now tend toward an average rivalry finish rank of 3.5. If a guild works hard to complete quests, they may win first place that week, but then they'll just face even tougher competition next week, and then perhaps get last place the next week.
- What you can almost 100% guarantee now is that no guild will ever get first week after week after week. Because, after a few weeks, to get 1st again means you'll have to defeat guilds who have been just as active as you.
- We can also almost 100% guarantee that no guild will ever get last week after week after week. Because, after a few weeks, to get 6th again means you'll have to not defeat guilds who have been doing just as few quests as you have.
- This means two things: Hard-working guilds will NOT be as well-rewarded as they have been in the past. And Lazy guilds will be BETTER rewarded than they have been in the past.

Now, I saw someone's response was basically "Yeah, well, isn't that how all competition works now? Including our infamy ranking?"

If by that you mean "when you improve, you face tougher competition", then yes, you're not wrong............... but you're only half not wrong...............

But here's the other half.............

In our infamy structure, the higher infamy you are, you get higher periodic and seasonal rewards. Players strive for Nightmare because there are worthwhile rewards! (Now, arguably, the incentives for climbing in infamy have diminished in favor of gaming the guild quest system for more tokens -- but that's kind of a separate issue -- actually it's not, but let me just continue...)

Roytchai's point was, if you push guilds into this sort of competition, you have to first acknowledge that there are ZERO PERIODIC REWARDS for being a "high-achieving" guild week after week. There's not even a "leaderboard" for bragging rights for being a guild that completes X quests per week. The ONLY rewards are whatever you can win within a single Rivalry matchup. (A guild that completes 10 quests per week and a guild that completes 50 quests per week each get the same periodic reward of nothing.)

And now, in this system, there isn't even anything a guild can do do push themselves above that 3.5 average rivalry rank. In fact, there's also not much they can do to push themselves below it either. The only way to do either would be to "game it" by doing very little one week then doing a whole lot the next week (or visa versa) --- but that would only affect a single week, even if they did that over many weeks, their average wouldn't change from 3.5 very much.

So, we are now in a situation where your efforts to try to do well in a Rivalry matchup may be effective for your given week, but unless you can sustain that extra effort -- no, let me correct myself -- unless you can continuously increase your effort week over week over week, whatever you think you've gained by doing a few extra quests to do well one week will automatically put your guild in a really tough spot next week and guarantee that you'll place low.

Maybe you make a great motivational speech, everyone buys boosts, and everyone puts in extra hours, and by some miracle you do 50 quests (which is 10 more than your usual 40) to earn first place!!! .......... well, congratulations, you just guaranteed your guild to face a set of other guilds who also did 50 quests (perhaps without breaking a sweat because they're all in Nightmare league). What are you going to do, give another motivational speech? buy even more boosts? put in even more hours? Heck, are you even going to merely repeat your performance from last week (which we already called a miracle)?

Roytchai is right......... effort is no longer useful in Rivalries. Not over time at least. In fact, being lazy isn't even detrimental anymore. Because the worse you do, the easier time you'll have "accidentally" getting 1st or 2nd next week.

And Roytchai is right, again, when he says it is NOT in Rovio's best interest to so strongly discourage effort.

In conclusion, a proper guild-matchup system should:
(1) - match guilds of similar "strength" (meaning, if they all played the same amount of time, they should completely approximately the same number of quests) -- and I think total Infamy is about as good a way of measuring this as I can think of
(2) - reward guilds who can OUT-EFFORT other guilds that are, at least on paper (i.e. infamy), "just as strong" as they are, and by extension, not reward guilds who CANNOT out-effort similar strength guilds.

 

Yes, the previous method of matching guilds, based on infamy, was a much better way.

 

I disagree with about this system being worst than the previous one, the infamy system was so much more exploitable. But only time will show us, maybe a month from now both of us have different opinions.

 

Nono don’t get me wrong, the new quest system is amazing! But the new rivalry matching system is what we are complaining about.

 

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i don’t think Rovio need to completely revert back to the previous matching system. In fact they can just slightly tweak the old system so that it will not match guild with several active 3000+ infamy players with 25 low infamy players.

For example, the fleet system prevents players to fleet with others with 800 infamy difference. Now for guild system, they used to take the “average infamy” to match guilds, which is unfair to a lot of low level guilds. Instead, they could also do the following:
1) Match the number of players in a guild. If there are only 5 players, match them with 4-6 players guilds to compete with.
2) Don’t just take the average infamy. Calculate the matching criteria with the median, max and min as well.
3) Prevent too large infamy difference between guilds. This might be difficult because most guilds already have a large infamy difference, but most guilds have a certain amount of active players only. You can only use the top 10 contributors’ infamy as a reference.

After all, as we have played this game for so long, the infamy point is quite an accurate indicator to players’ skill and weapon quality, so Ravio should never give up using this amazing indicator (with satistical validity because it has been there for the entire life of Battle Bay). MATCHING HARD WORK WITH HARD WORK WILL NEVER WORK.

(Off topic) imagine FIFA suddenly decides to put all the top 3 football league teams into one single league, and rank 4-6 teams into another league, etc. And chances are Man City will get 5th place because of so many good teams out in other leagues. Now would they still buy so many good players? Yet a sucky team like Arsenal (Arsenal fan) will now suddenly win a league even with a sucky lineup. Do you think it’s fair?

 

The developers didn't ask for this... they originally gave us random rivalries with a fairly decent win percentage for active guilds. it was the #*&$ users on this forum demanding "equal" rivalries not realizing it means they will go from winning 1/3 of the rivalries in lesser active guilds to 1/6 of them for all guilds. The winners in this are the nearly inactive guilds. Thanks forum users. Next time be careful what you ask for, as the devs might just give it to you.

 

I likes this updates Guild Rivalry TBH. Its more balance. Plus Its only week 1, just wait for next week for new matchmaking based on your guild activity for this week. Jump guild are not possible since you cannot get the token reward from it.

 

That's not a good example, It happens all around the soccer world, I'm Brazilian, and our terrible teams win our leagues every year Your Premier League is one exception

 

I'm sure you know your winning rate, maybe the winning rate of some other guilds but How could you possibly know the rates of everyone else? There's just not enough numbers to every active guild to win as much as you are claiming they were winning before the update. The previous system was stimulating tanking, every chat I saw was full of people telling they were tanking for next rivalry, tell me how could that be fairer than the new system?

 

I like the new rivalry, as activity should definitely be a factor, but that shouldn't be the only one. I think the current system would be great if it was broken into different size groups, like 1-15 then 16-25 members, or something similar. We'll see how it goes next week. I just hope that all the activity that I've been putting in, to try and get out of last place, doesn't negatively impact the match-up next week. Only time will tell, I suppose.

 

Guys, about what time are you talking? About what "wait for few weeks"?
The system won't change by itself.

The system makes the following:
It groups people by their performance (best guilds # 1-6, #7-12, #13-18 etc), and then rewards them within these groups.
As a result, best guild #6 may receive less reward, than best guild #100500.

The developers just killed the rivalry. There is no more competition, it doesn't depend on your hard work. You may just ignore the quests, then next week you will be given "free" opponents, or you may play battlebay 24/7, then next week you will be matched with impossible for you opponents. And will end up with 1000 tokens for rivalry.

It is now similar to the win rate - no matter what you do, it will be the same. Everyone will have the same average reward from the rivalry.

The only difference is the amount of cleared boards, you can grow in this direction. But rivalry competition is dead.

Previous system was stimulating guild to be active for the rivalry bonuses. The only cons were for "guilds" of few people who didn't play the game much.
Now those people receive the same rivalry bonus as very active guilds. Did we really need this?

 

I have the same thing too.. here is my post in the forum https://forum.battlebay.net/threads/guild-matchmaking-problem.16862/
I have attached screenshot of how it is not fair for this matchmaking guild rivalry since the update. Our guild were match against global top 3,5 and top 50. Rival lowest infamy 3800 our guild highest infamy player is only 3500. In term of doing weapon quest we have lost since we are mostly rare 40 weapon against legendary tier 2 at a minimum or epic 50

 

...is not very clear, we are team number two in the global, very competitive in guild quest, we were always against the best teams, two very good as rebz and guardsman, and the rest empty teams, so not very cool always like this. This week we are against much lower groups of infamy, and my surprise is that these teams play really, really hard! we have a hard time keeping first and now we have taken advantage but it has cost a lot, and all team has helped. So observing their equipment I realize that curiously they have maximized weapons, full of epic perks, but low of infamy. Clearly a strategy that managed to win easy in guild quest. Their weapons and levels are high enough to be much higher in the rankings so it is clear that it is their way of staying against guilds much weaker. tanking infamy. So making the game worst.
If it costs us so much to beat them, the rest of the teams had to be really easy crushed, as they mark in their numbers.
So it is normal for some to complain, but now you have to play against equally good teams, and if you do not win you will go down to a logical level but you will not be destroying other small teams and tanking infamy. So if there is a system to really cheat is the previous one, in this we will have to wait to see how it works. But for now it seems much better and competitive.
As example one of the teams against us, ranked Lv21...... 15 times position 1, 5 times 2, 0 times 3 the other team....rank 58; 1 pos 14 times, 2 pos 6 times, 3 pos 0 times, WOW! It´s that logic ¿...? for weak guilds or players...not. And now you can see how even only in few days all this guilds are in higher rank because the formula to tank infamy don´t work more. So numbers talk...
Sure not a prefect system but at least they try to improve, and all the other changes are great, just my humble opinion.

 

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Agree with you, however see the attched pic where 1 guild has only 1 player. He has to competes against us or even worse #3 top. So u r night clan, It would be easy if u find a rival against us. But on my side it will be hard to compete against u no matter how much boost we have ( in term of weapon quest) other like dominator shooter win machine or fixer win machine we weill be able to compete because all those count towards winning amount. It doesnt depend on damage or anything. You get what i mean?

 

Obviously it makes more sense to create “rivalries” between equal adversaries rather than using a metric that has very little with questing as the determinant? Combined guildinfamy was a horrible metric for activity.
This change is a massive step in the right direction, despite some loud posters that had lost their freepass to 42k tokens/week. In the long run you guys will learn to appreciate that rivalries are actual battles, rather than the scripted event it was before.

 

The football tournaments that gathers the most attention does exactly this. Champions league is the main football event for a reason, its the best of the best facing off against eachother. And yes, Sometimes that results in Psg or Madrid being knocked out in the quarterfinal stage. Has that stopped them from spending loads of money? No.

New system matches teams based on ability, previous system was like matching teams based on average player age. Infamy has nothing to do with games played/week + boosts bought.

 

Im not saying the new update is bad. I love the new quest and the activity matchmaking, perhaps they should combine activity + infamy to get a better equality. Thats is what i mean. Guild infamy isnt a bad metric if combined with active matchmaking. Here , our guild, never enjoy a freepass or easy rival since the begining. We always compete agains rival that are active in completing guild quest that often we need to use a strategy to win. So unfortunately we are not that lucky to get freepass 42k/week without working our ass off. Fyi. Some of our member work almost 24 hr for some days. Could search our guild and see total battle on each player and judge from there.

 

imp

Simple question, if you were in a situation where u have an mk5 team agains mk7 what would u do to win. Taking consideration 11 out of 25 member been playing all thru the week? Or mk1 against mk3. Fair?

 

Well my bias is clearly different, I come from a mk6/7 Nightmare guild thats usually around #10. But we are a very casual guild with loads of f2p players and no group pressure in regards to activity.

Before this change we would consistantly find ourselves matched against the 25vip guilds packed with highly active members on a constant flow of x5 boosts. Imbalanced to a degree where we didnt bother at all, no amount of spending brings a 45-50quest guild close to the 60+ guilds.

Its completely fair that the people who outspend and outfarm us gets more rewards. Long term I do think that this new model will prove to be more exciting for everyone though. Being placed into competitions where you have a chance to win, & where your actions can affect the outcome, is better for everyone. The transition might be rough (in particular for the highly active low infamy guilds that are used to weekly wins), but long term its more satisfying to win/lose meaningful matchups.