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On the Subject of the Sniper Cannon

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by CaffeinatedChris, 30 Nov 2017.

  1. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    There has been no shortage of "vigorous and spirited debate" over the current state of the Sniper Cannon and its rather common use.

    While I can't make any promises about the future decision or timelines, I wanted to bring back a simple message from the development team:

    "We hear you."

    Balancing weapons across an entire game's range of skill sets, equipment levels, and attached perks is difficult. There's certainly some good arguments as to what could possibly be done, but adjustments to player equipment should almost never be done in a knee-jerk manner. Some of the suggestions have included (but are not limited to)
    • Capping the overall crit chance
    • Reducing the impact of crit chance perks
    • Scaling down crit chance or base damage at closer ranges
    And they're being considered; but the wider impact has to be considered. As shown by the "Meta Snapshot" threads, different items see varying usage levels at higher or lower infamy ranges. Believe me, as a Fixer player, I know about high-level decisions having knock-on effects to weaker ships (the self-repair nerf to Pulse certainly helped create the Selfish/Duct Tape/Paladin Fixer)

    For the time being, please refrain from making any more threads calling for the nerf of this specific item, including in the General forum.

    Thanks!
     
  2. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    Thread has been opened for feedback.

    Please remember to discuss the item, and not the players who use it.
     
    Last edited: 11 Dec 2017
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  3. Joey who

    Joey who Well-Known Member

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    Nevermind, can't post my feedback without my message being altered.
     
    Last edited: 11 Dec 2017
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  4. Ash KOT

    Ash KOT MVP

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    The critical hit is the only part which makes it a valid weapon.
    By reducing this down, the weapon becomes by far inferior to the Blast Cannon and Explosive Cannon.
    It is already balanced, it does not need a nerf, it needs to be left alone.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    It feels balanced early on, but it's OPness begins to show in Ace league. It has too much of a presence. You even see brawler shooters use it.
    #NerfShortRangeEffectivity
     
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  6. Ash KOT

    Ash KOT MVP

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    Personally, I hate nerfs, they are negative, and send the game backwards.
    Instead I prefer buffs, if the sniper (or any other weapon is ahead), I would prefer to see the alternative weapons buffed to restore the balance.
    I cant comment on the end game here, but I am already seeing T2 / T3 epics and T4 rare snipers and they really are not an issue.
    It is frustrating when they crit, but more often than not it doesnt and as a result does minimal damage compared to other cannons of the same level.
    Just think the community is driving down a negative road where whining is becoming the normal now.
    Look at frost, its now not feasible.
    Now people want to nerf sniper, nerf speeder, nerf stun, where does it end?
    When we have no variety left and only one loadout is still viable.
    Out of interest, if sniper is so good it is game-breaking, how come so many players do not use it?
    Last stats showed under 50% of players were using it in nightmare, so why would people be deliberately be choosing not to use it?
     
  7. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    Well, Nightmare may be where balance changes are made to be delivered, but Ace is where they have the most impact.
    Basically, due to all the recent balances, sniper cannon has become the only "meta" other than flare+blast. Then again, sniper cannon becomes HIGHLY viable in Master 1 and above, due to the awesome early Bhurt trainings offering it immense buffs early- and mid- game, unlike the flare+blast or ex combo, which has trainings spread so far apart, and thus finds more use in Nightmare. This actually means that, for early game and mid game players, the sniper cannon has become just the best rounded gun, and it is capable of taking on the roles of the blast and excannon for comparable results! This is not what it was meant for, so I ask, why keep it as effective at short range as it is at long range? Just nerf the point blank crit chance, it will encourage waaay more variety.

    P.S. Did the green text answer your question, m8? TL;DR Bhurt's trainings are much more expensive, time wise, for blast and ex compared to snipe.
     
  8. A55A51N

    A55A51N Well-Known Member

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    Yeah i would say the railgun-like crit chance scaling. If that would happen, i would be fine with the 2000+ hits from the other side of the map
     
  9. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    i've been suggesting this for weeks. make it the opposite of carronade. long range domination but not nearly as useful in short range. scale the crit down to where within about range 5 (what are the units?), there is no crit chance. you keep what the essence of a sniper is supposed to be... a long range weapon.

    secondly, @CaffeinatedChris, please encourage the devs to not make a large nerf to the sniper cannon or anything else. game balance needs to take place gradually and in many small changes, not few large ones. if you slightly tweaked each weapon every season, you'd have a much more balanced game than the current structure of making few large changes. small changes will also be received by the community better and you'll have an easier time adapting to the meta.

    -from someone who mains a sniper cannon
     
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  10. Ash KOT

    Ash KOT MVP

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    Sniper is a long range weapon?
    Have you seen those point blank criticals? Its a shotgun in disguise :p
    This isn't a bad idea, but would you still use it as a main weapon?
    If you are getting bullied up close you just screwed yourself out of a weapon slot and blast or explosive would probably become the meta.
     
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  11. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    It wouldn't. It is healthy for a shooter to carry an excannon into battle. Much better team support. Sniper cannons won't be killed, they will be used only by the best. Not some idiot who has no idea how to lead shots and hits targets with crits at point blank. Such people dont deserve the crit. People who actually snipe and make game changing plays deserve crits.
     
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  12. Ash KOT

    Ash KOT MVP

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    Wasn't the initial problem that people were hitting 2000+ damage crits from across the map?
    Majority of posts go like "its not fair for so much damage to hit from so far away in a split second".
    Now we are suggesting a nerf so that stays the same but now it cant crit at close range?
    Whats the issue with the sniper critting at close range, you can get just as big crits from an explosive cannon, did you see the video from @American Marauder recently?
    This is why I think the gun is doomed as everyone likes to complain :D
    OP with across the map crits, OP with close up crits, how can Rovio make a decision on where to take it with no clear direction.
    Will probably end up with no crit at all and end up sleeping on the shelf with the frost launcher gathering dust.
     
  13. A55A51N

    A55A51N Well-Known Member

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    So proposed scaling of the crit:
    Base range is 40 and scaling would start at half the range. At 5 range the crit chance would be 5 %
    Crit chance 15 %:
    Chance at 15 range: 12,5%
    Chance at 12,5 range: 10 %
    Chance at 10 range: 7,5 %

    This way the main problem, crit at close range, will be adjusted (nerfed) and it would still remain a strong weapon at mid to long ranges + devs already have the code from railgun, so it would be easy to just write a few lines
    Edit: And it would also be fair to lower levels
     
    Last edited: 11 Dec 2017
  14. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    Anybody who complains about long range crits is either a shooter who doesn't know the meaning of "glass cannon", a defender who doesn't understand the meaning of "tank class", an enfo who doesn't know how to dance, a fixer who doesn't know "survival first, HIDE", OR, worst of all, a speeder who doesn't know what nitro does. It's close range that irks most of us, I'm sure.
     
  15. Ash KOT

    Ash KOT MVP

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    This looks well thought out and very feasible, good work ;)
    You guys are ahead of me in terms of season / infamy so what isn't a problem for me yet, might be a problem in future who knows!
     
  16. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    The only part of your "message" that was altered was the part that was in direct contradiction to the now size-7 bolded-italicized disclaimer about playing nice. Users asking for Sniper to be nerfed are not "blast cannon cry babies" and that doesn't advance the discussion in any useful direction.

    This is exactly why there hasn't been another knee-jerk patch, nor a hastily penned dev reply. We have all seen how the "big nerfs" are responded to - lots of anger, threats, cursing. Unless something is exploitable and straight-up broken (eg: some bug that results in a ship being perma-frozen or perma-stunned) you correct a ship's course with a gentle hand on the rudder.
     
  17. American Marauder

    American Marauder Well-Known Member

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    Sniper was all ready nerfed. Enough crying about it. Let's talk about how we're still being stunned non-stop and can't fight back because the resistance feature is a joke.
     
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  18. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    It isn't. In what way, do you mean? If you are being two-teamed, with constant stuns going off, then that's just bad luck. Stun shield works precisely as it was made. What are you talking about,m8?
     
  19. Ash KOT

    Ash KOT MVP

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    Just to clarify, you are in the "leave sniper alone camp" :D
    Also I hope stun isn't nerfed too, its the only decent assist item now frost has been killed in the latest update, but now we are derailing the thread!
     
  20. American Marauder

    American Marauder Well-Known Member

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    I'm talking about being last alive and dealing with two speeders who keep me stunned the entire time so i can't fight back.
     

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