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Misconceptions about Matchmaking

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by xArrogance, 18 Mar 2019.

  1. mustbeunique

    mustbeunique New Member

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    26 Jan 2019
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    True, i guess we can't have even matches because NM player don't want to wait.. But its ok. I have come to realize NM (4500 - 5200) players are really not all that good at this game. if you think about it. They only win because they are match with players 2 to 2.5X less their infamy. Wonder what what happen if some on those SAME players were match with players with the same infamy?

    So.....WTG NW players, way to go.. You should pat yourselves on the back. You are all just the best:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Wish I was match with 1000 or less infamy players.. Id have 5000 infamy also
     
  2. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    Obviously you are a "bit" salty, but this is *the* core matchmaking complaint. faster != better... unless you are OP.
     
  3. TVNPryde

    TVNPryde Well-Known Member

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    That is not true. You’re assuming no one ever hit the NM reset. Players like PeterKing and similar have much higher than 50% win rate once you get above 5500, you have to win 3 of 5 just to maintain the infamy. PeterKing got to 6k+ at Will in the last 3-4 days of season. You’re at 5k (like you said) so you should know a win and a loss is not equal in infamy?

    Since you disagree with increasing the infamy pool with me , I have a screenshot that we are losing infamy from the pool below. I went through my battle log and can’t find any battle where we have a +2 infamy in a battle but I got one that is -4. I also saw a lot of -2 battles. So in the long run, the pool is shrinking.

    BAC5392D-2A80-4C68-ABA6-7934833771CA.png
     
  4. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    767
    I searched through the league rankings and couldn't find PeterKing .. unless he changed his name, I don't think he plays anymore.

    Win Percentages:
    Otherwise, there are probably 2-4 players that have a significantly higher ranked win percentage than 51% .. Those skilled few have such a competitive advantage with high level legendary items, legendary perks, unbalanced ships, and high-level OP new items that it doesn't matter what teammates they're given nor what competition they're faced with ..

    But for everyone else on the leaderboard, they're putting in hundreds of matches each season.. and depending who else is in the queue, there are matches that are +24/-24 even at 5k.

    Some might have higher win percentages (and insane k/m ratios) in their profile because of events .. unfortunately they don't seperate the two.

    Infamy Creation:
    As far as infamy creation vs deletion goes ... there used to be well over 1M lost in season resets .. now there's probably 20k .. or about 1% of the previous amount .. so it is no longer the issue that I described. That amount of infamy in a pool of several million is immaterial.

    But, I also don't have numbers for the amount of new players joining each day. If there are 5 players joining a day, that's over 70k created each season .. with 15, it's over 200k ..

    If I had to take a guess, it seems logical that they're removing a few points of infamy here and there to lessen the infamy inflation created by new players. But, it could be completely random and arbitrary for all I know.

    Adding Infamy:
    You might want to make a suggestion post that they add an achievement for playing 10k ranked matches that gives everyone the equivalent of the top season rewards for all time ...

    Because that would probably have a better chance of succeeding than arguing that infamy deletion is the cause of player infamy stagnation or degradation (rather than one of the other areas that I explained in the original post) ...

    It would be the same result as adding +1 to each win in the current system .. Playing 10k matches gets you to 5k infamy (NML1) regardless of your skill, items or strategy.

    Obviously, I wouldn't devalue the leaderboard in that way if it were my game .. but I also wouldn't require players to play 10+ hours for the 12.5% chance of getting the event perks they need to remain competitive

    ... so, who knows .. you might have a shot.
     
    Last edited: 25 Mar 2019
    VantaBlack likes this.
  5. mustbeunique

    mustbeunique New Member

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    Not salty, just pissed that im stuck with nightmare players with T3 are T4 legendary weapons at infamy 2200(all time high 2900).. Don't know how ANYONE can justify that this is FAIR and keep defending rovio and the devs

    I found a new game to play, so rovio just lost another player... IM done, they can keep they sh*tty matchmaking.. with there 4000+ matching with 2200.. REDICK!!!
     
  6. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    Another example why sacrificing the integrity of matchmaking in the name of shorter wait times is destroying the game.
     
  7. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

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    In ranked? Or in events?

    I've said that Events (as they are now) should match solely on captain level without any hidden player rating formulas .. they aren't currently.

    They're taking infamy or win rates into account .. so even when I'm dealing the most damage, getting the most kills, and dying the fewest amount of times in almost every match, I'm still winning around 50% of my matches. So far, I'm at a 45% win rate this event .. because I can't torp faster than my teammates die.

    Why captain level ..? It's the same amount of coins for 5k as it is for 1k players.. so it's unfair to handicap them with tougher matches because of their skill level.


    If you're talking about ranked ... screenshots? You should have plenty on hand if this is the problem you claim it is ...


    Although, I suspect you're crying about events .. They've played the game for the same amount of time as you, so your real issue is likely a lack of skill ..
     
    VantaBlack likes this.
  8. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    No. Just no. Why do you think Captain Level is an appropriate matchmaking input? It's just a measure of how much time/sugar/pearls were spent for training. It measures neither skill nor strength.
     
    TVNPryde likes this.
  9. TVNPryde

    TVNPryde Well-Known Member

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    The difference in load outs between 2 level 50 players can be huge. There are a lot of level 50 players that still use less than tier 5 rare and shouldn’t be match up with tier 4 legendary and up. Most of his suggestions seemed to tailor made for him and his infamy range. Everyone below 5k are apparently lacking skills.
     
    envylife likes this.
  10. mustbeunique

    mustbeunique New Member

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    26 Jan 2019
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    Think i said a few time Events and Casual -- Ranked is even worse

    But anyhoo -- you are right all players under 5000 just have no skill and the matching is perfect

    Mute point anyways I deleted the game.. LVL 50 will 16K battles gone with a simple push on the screen

    Good luck in beating up those players in the 2K infamy
     
  11. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    For the same rewards ... yes, that is the definition of "fair."

    When you say it measures neither strength nor skill, you mean to say players aren't handicapped for their strength or skill.

    I have suggested they add a league multiplier and use ranked MM so that matches are more "fair" and those higher in infamy have a much easier time collecting coins .. but some players didn't seem to like that idea ..


    But, I'll indulge you for a moment..

    If they use ranked infamy for an event MM factor, then players would be incentivized to drop infamy for easier event matches. You yourself have said ranked has no meaning for you anymore - so what is there to lose ...? Some silly rewards twice a month compared to a near guaranteed 10-coins every match for game changing perks ...

    Or, maybe they should use gear score ... because that worked out well before... Players will find ways to manipulate their gear score for easier matches regardless of how you score each item.

    However, if you want to spend the time coming up with a system, have players test it, then suggest it .. I will freely admit I'm wrong (if it passes muster).

    But, given your confidence in the devs' ability to come up with a system that satisfies you, how likely do you think it is that they'll do all that work .. when their team has been reduced to a few people?

    Not likely .. so this discussion is not helpful. It detracts from the things that can (and should) be changed ...
     
    VantaBlack likes this.
  12. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    So you want higher level players to get legendary perks with less grinding than everyone else? That's a convoluted way of varying rewards by league. From the outset players have questioned the ability for day 1 players to grind for Legendary Perks just as easy as NML players because that's not possible in the same way with anything else in the game. The more sane solution is to make their reward a rare or epic perk, but alas after all these months there is still no common sense solution to "giving away too much to players" as the devs' stated excuse for nerfing Event rewards.

    The only time I've suggested that Events should use or impact Infamy is in an attempt to save Infamy, recognizing that players are mostly not playing ranked. I've since given up on that idea, as the prerequisite requires more players, or longer wait times.. and the devs believe longer wait times is worse than bad matchmaking. Player exoduses have proven otherwise... and this is reaffirmed every day in this forum. every. single. day.

    I do believe Gear Score matchmaking in Events/Casual is a good idea... but you know as well as I why it didn't work initially: it didn't take into account item specific training. The ONLY reason Captain Level is used in matchmaking is a largely inaccurate means of supplementing Gear Score with training. It's better than nothing, but it's far from accurate, with many side-effects.

    1. It's not measuring power of equipped items. You can be Captain Level 40, take out your Fixer, with no Fixer item training whatsoever and be matched against Fixers with the same Captain Level, ship level, and item level on the other team, but they could be fully trained up, and their item effectiveness is night and day better... which was the first iteration of GS matchmaking.

    2. Captain 50 is far from fully trained, but EventMatchmaker(tm) treats it as so. There's a year's left of training after 50, which is many, many training trees.

    3. Knowing this you can game the system with a mini account. Train up only the 7 items you put on a ship and you will be stronger than anyone in your matches.

    Without matchmaking of equals, Ranked is dead, Infamy is dead, and Leagues are dead. The game can still be enjoyable, and progression can still exist in other forms, but we need to get rid of things that are a cancer to the game, as Infamy as it exists now is at best misleading, and at worst, sacrifices the core integrity of the game.
     
    Nikkie! likes this.
  13. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

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    That is not the reason most left the game... and clearly I'm going to have to spell this out in a seperate post .. because no one gets it ... o_O


    But, to be clear, I would love a GS-MM-only formula for events .. I could lower my GS and seal club my way to 600/800 coins fairly easily .. (not that I'd have to lower my GS much since most players have several max epics by now).

    It would be far better for me than the current system that puts me and four 2k infamy players against five NML players (to knock down my win percentage/hidden player rating) ...

    Although, interestingly enough .. I heard players were lowering their GS and getting easier matches lately. I haven't played enough to confirm that but it would be hilarious if that's the case ... My GS isn't much different than 2k players so the matching wouldn't change at all (with hidden player ratings choosing teams anyways).


    I'm about to make a suggestion to fix the appearance of unfairness regarding infamy .. but they (and I) gave up on ever having a perfectly equal, balanced game months ago ..

    There is no equality or fair playing field when new items are about 40% stronger than they should be, or when event perks make items useful (or OP) for those that spend the most vs having those items nerfed into oblivion for those unable to purchase event perks (or those unable to grind 20+ hours each event).


    Unfortunately, it is what it is .. It's nowhere near perfect but removing infamy would effectively kill the game within 30 days ..
     
    Nikkie! likes this.
  14. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot of reasons players are leaving the game... progression nerfs, power cell imbalances, RNG issues, P2W favoritism, but matchmaking is the nail in the coffin. Moreover every one of these items have been ignored by the devs for as long as I can remember. If playing the game feels more like beating one's head against the wall more so than enjoyment, then players won't continue, which is exactly what is happening.

    The game as it stands needs to be reinvisioned to meet the current state of affairs, but Infamy is not the item keeping players around. But as you state, removing Infamy will kill the game unless it's replaced with something else, but as it stands now, it's highly flawed and and excessively misleading number.
     
  15. TVNPryde

    TVNPryde Well-Known Member

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    @envylife
    The reasons for people leaving in waves are what you stated but not matchmaking. Most people left before MM got to this point. MM is not as bad as you think because it happened on both sides. Those people who left in waves were because those were their breaking points. Honestly, next update will be the 2 years anniversary update. If the epic power cells issue doesn't get better, I don't see myself playing this game competitively anymore. I'll probably causally until most of my friends in the game leave.

    @xArrogance
    I don't think any recommendation is getting through to these devs. If you look at ranked right now, it has been neglected. No incentives like events. No changes at all. Events are just changing some values to make it different but no addition features at all. From global launch to the Gatling gun update, only guild quests and telsa bolt were good additions to the game. All buffs and nerfs were just changing some stats - like what events are doing now. Since the Gatling gun update, these devs just trying to shove things down the players throats. They only seemed to be trying to squeeze the $$$ from the players right now. They are not interest in anything else at all.
     
  16. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    The most frustration I've ever had in this game are two things:
    1. RNG. Without exception it consistently disappoints me. The first T4E weapon I built 12 months ago is still waiting for it's 6th. My favorite weapon finally got it's 6th just last week after 12 months of nothing. Players have asked for a bit less of this extreme RNG as only a few hardy souls are going to wait out 12 months of zero progression. As @xArrogance has pointed out, inventory space exacerbates this core game issue. Progression falls into this category, but the root issue is RNG.
    2. Matchmaking. If matchmaking was fair I'd expect to see matches with a lot of back and forth... what I've historically seen in this game is streakiness with days of wins followed by days of losses. The massive loss streaks are frustrating, and the win streaks don't quite make up for that frustration. Why is it so streaky, contradicting probability statistics? My theory has always been that there is too much manipulation going on, some of which the devs have confirmed. Today, these deficiencies are even less hidden than before, and then more algorithmic issue were added on top of the already shaky algorithm.
    Being that my biggest two issues haven't seen tangible progress since I started two years ago, it's not hard to understand why players have given up.
     
    Ultrah and Aether_Zero like this.
  17. TVNPryde

    TVNPryde Well-Known Member

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    If you think RGN is screwing you, I just got my 4th epic turbo last month. Aside from achievement, the last time I got an epic EC was 2017. I am not joking. I still have a tier 3 epic EC and I’ve done 30mils damages with EC.

    Anyway, epic power cells are more frustrating than both of your points. It’s base on RGN too since scrapping epic items for it is not an adequate option. There is literally no dependable way of obtaining it. Couple hundreds of dollars don’t make much difference there. And many many players facing this problem. It’s flat out stupid to introduce a resource that has no benefit at all.
     
  18. Mimmel

    Mimmel Member

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    It's definitely a problem having 3 battle modes and people are not motivated to play ranked. However from guild quests point of view, I am against to delete casual mode. I don't like at all that some bring small ships or under developed weapons to the ranked. You should bring your best to ranked if it costs your infamy. We can reduce the mode to two. During event no casual. I am sometimes frustrated to play casual as well when I see 3000 infamy difference. But I suppose it is even worse experience for those lower infamy players.

    I was happy when the nightmare reset was raised to 5000. Before I didn't want to play ranked at the season start. Now l don't care so much about it. But they could have done that a year earlier.

    Regarding power cells, I have less problems. It's annoying but I got started early enough with scrapping rare 11. I have 11 epic t5 gears and have 130 power cells. I usually wait for parts and not for power cells.

    Seeing Rovio is investing less to the game and no March update, the end of this game might be close, unfortunately. I still love this game.
     
    Last edited: 29 Mar 2019
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  19. TVNPryde

    TVNPryde Well-Known Member

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    As I said earlife, you always short on some resources in this game. That’s one of the main reasons this game will never be balance. If you took the route of scrapping rare 11, then you always going to be short on parts even if you grinder a lot for golds.

    Agree that there should only be 2 modes at the same time. If you going to bring weak load outs to ranked or events, you’re going to lose somethings by doing that.
     
  20. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    Good thing is you don't actually need that 4th Epic Turbo :)

    We can compare war stories all day. I have been stuck at a T3 Flare for as long as I can remember, and that 3rd was from achievements. I have seen a single Epic OB in 2 years. I have seen 2 Epic Bandages in 2 years. 2 out of my first 3 Legendary combines were Standard Mortar, you know, the least used weapon in the game, until GG came along, but only because it's newer. I could go on as we all have stories. After 2 years and still being unable to fill a single boat with T5E items is a sign that RNG makes a pretty terrible progression system.

    I disagree... you can grind power cells over time, but there is nothing you can do about lack of dups that don't come for 1+ years.
     

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