Item popularity snapshot - June 2018

Our conversation is off topic for this thread. If you want to discuss about revenue generating, create a thread for it.

Back to EC. EC usage in this thread are solely on shooters and speeder. Our discussion started with the statement that EC is not a good weapon for defender now. The best weapons for defender now are probably carro + 2 blasts. Now imagine is the devs increase the cool down for telsa shield to 30 seconds, are you going to tell those enfo users that there are 5 other yellow items out there, make it works?

 

Wrong, I showed you screenshots of 4 top 100 defenders, 3 of them are still running at least one EC. So obviously it's still a viable option. When they can get with EC to the top 100 now, everybody can.

 

LOL, you are the one that started talking about it in a thread where it didn't belong

Wrong. In the snapshot, EC was used on all ships except enforcer. Both defenders in the top 50 were running 1x EC, as well as a fixer.

Wrong again. Our discussion started with you suggesting that defender couldn't be good without EC, which is a much stronger statement.

False analogy for four reasons:
1. EC cooldown was increased by 18% and you are comparing it to a 50% increase in TS cooldown
2. 18 weapons is a huge amount with plenty of options while 5 yellow items for an equal amount of slots (3) gives very limited options
3. weapons all fill the same role (deal damage) and therefore are easier to substitute than items that have very different functions (yellows)
4. Most weapons are commonly agreed on to be approximately balanced, while half of the yellows are commonly agreed on to be overnerfed and in a bad state

If you're going to post more stuff, please, put some more thought into it.

 

First off, huge props to @Miathan for the work! I love stats so this thread is candy to me.
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I don't pretend to know enough about top 50 gameplay to have a proper opinion .. But I have a few comments about what the numbers (and my general game experience in nightmare league) tell me.


Main point: The double bubble has a huge ripple effect on BB - for good or bad, depending on your viewpoint.

1) Less ship variety
Mines are a great way of keeping enforcers off covered corners. And the more mine users there are, the less speeders you'll see - when one mine can wreck their day.

There are probably fewer defenders because they can't stack burn perks and deal the massive damage in 3 shots when they have to use all damage perks to get through Tshields.

2) Less weapon variety

I'm not 100% on the exact stats, but with enforcers' agility and ability to play peek-a-boo around corners or stay close enough to make torps ineffective, you have to use one of four weapons if you want to pop a Tshield (max epic to max epic) under a covered corner.

Carronade: Probably not a great option. I'm not even sure if a carronade will pop a Tshield but it may be too difficult to get close enough to land all 8 projectiles regardless, especially if they're setting up minefields.

Flare: It's an option, but running a single flare and using it on a Tshiled makes any fire perks on secondary weapons worthless.

Rail: Good option for a single Tshield, but it's cooldown makes less than ideal for getting through a double bubble.

E-Cannon: Even with massive nerfs and the inability to stack fire perks, it's one of the few counters to a Tshield. So, it's use rate is probably only as high as it is because of a lack of other options.

*(Blast cannon): Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they're strong enough to pop a Tshield (max epic to max epic). If they are, then there's absolutely no point to the ecannon anymore.



The good/bad debate is that you probably see less variety in weapon setups and fewer cannons with all burn perks attached.. Snipers, for example, are probably still strong enough to warrant significant use, but you don't see nearly as many running multiple snipers as there once was - which may be a good thing if you thought they were OP.

To close this out, I'm not arguing that double bubble enforcers are too OP, but they certainly limit the options/variery for everyone else - unless you want to resign yourself to the fact that you're going to lose every time 1v1.


Last thing: Personally, Shooters offer variety in BB. I can switch between 6 or 7 different setups that drastically change my play style. I'm not sure the same could be said for any other ship type - and it's too expensive to instantly switch crew trainings over to a different boat. So, if people like the variety as much as me, that could be one reason why you see more shooters.

 

There were 2 counters to TS before tesla stun and EC both were given huge nerfs. Although I agree with EC cooldown because the amount of damage it deals to a burning target.
I still think cannons especially blast and explosive are too much reliant on fire to unlock their true potential. Its one of the reason. I suggest increase the base damage of both and reduce the fire bonus. Like my T4E blast( 3 burn pers) deals 1050 normally with 0 defence and 1600+ for burning. Why not make it so that it deals 1300+ normally and 1600+ to burning. Effectively counters tesla shields. Right my blast doesn't breaks T4E TS.

 

If someone is going to mention Ex Cannon.

At least do it correctly.

It's not just a cool down nerf.
There also is the area splash damage reduction. The fire effect reduction. And the most drastic besides cool down.... is....
The distance nerf.

All of these put together is why this smacked defenders.

And the defender deniers will say this ex cannon nerf hurt other boats. Not as much as the big slow lumbering defender boat.
Before nerfs. 95 percent of all defenders used 1 flare and 2 ex cannons.
Plus defenders were evenly represented in leader boards thru top 200.

After nerf. 2 defenders. Maybe 4 consistently make top 200. We saw a 50 percent reduction from leaderboards.

This is a big deal.

As another poster wrote. Fix it back devs.

Or give defenders a better weapon for damage. Ie create a new weappn.

Also been discussed before is to reduce defenders weapon cool down by 20 percent. Like the way events worked. This can also ballance the bay.

But currently the boat is outgunned and outclassed by every other boat in bay.

Only when developers play with battle metrics of cool down and overall ship speed in events does it show Defenders shining.
And in those events it's as if the nerfs never happened.

Question if Defenders are so good in Deathmatch events because of these factors.

But suck in regular play because of nerfs.....
Doesn't it show developers have toyed with the defender boat massively?

Yes. It needs fixed.

 

@Miathan @What's Up Player, clearly you guys don't player defender at NM so you guys keep repeating that there are 18 other weapons for defender to use. As @*JAWS* just posted while I am typing, EC nerfed was more than just cool down. He plays defender so he can tell you from experience. I played with defender too but run cannon/sniper and double ECs. When you're in the middle of an enemy team, it's not fun to wait for EC cool down after you fire the 2.

Again, can you provide any setup where the other 18 weapons can make the defender even good?

 

The life of a Defender on the bay:

 

You don't seem to understand what I'm trying to tell you, so I'm gonna explain more.

We can all agree that defender (at least MK7, talking about top 50 here) is underpowered. That's common knowledge, even popularity snapshot proved that to be true.
We also see, that EC, that was dominating in the last popularity snapshot, is now more in balance.
So you want to make EC to be overpowering again, in order to buff defender. That's really not a way to go.
I personally think, buffing little bit of speed, HP, turret and agility on defender would be way better.

About your combos that you keep repeating even though I already answered that two times in this thread already, speeders adapted. Some keep using EC (like Orpheus, the best speeder now accordingly to last season), some changed from EC to BC. Are they doing worse? No. The same with defenders (posted screenshots earlier).
I really don't see any reason, why, after proper defender buff, wouldn't it be able to compete with combos like

• flare + dual blast/dual explosive
• flare, grenade and blast/explosive.
• flare, carronade and blast/explosive
• flare, cannon and blast/explosive

Maybe you, as a defender player can answer that, because the mentioned combos seem to work on every other ship.

 

People can't just swap out their best weapon for another instantly. Assuming you're an enforcer, you play the meta, got buffs all over, and nerded to the items that can hurt you so you're just happy. The setups you suggested make a defender to be like enforcer. What is the point of have 5 slot points and only using 3 of them? And remember that EC is a 2-points weapon so it should hit much harder than blast.

Man, you should try to read your own comments. Theoretically, a 30 seconds cool down for TS still only leave about 11 seconds of opening to shoot at enforcer. You think the other 18 weapons are the same? If there is a harsh nerf to blast, I guess everyone can use standard mortar as substitute for it.

 

Blast cannon, standard cannon, some torp ( I've found that TriTorp works well)

Then some shields, turbo, and maybe a bandage

 

@TVNPryde, not that it would be any of your business, but I play both speeder and enforcer, but doing better in speeder, so that's what I mainly play (just like the Enforcer photo more). None of my items got any buff lately, only stun got nerfed. So your point is completely invalid.

And what's wrong with losing slot points? With combo flare + blast + explosive, you wouldn't have cooldown issue like with dual explosive, and you'd do only 400 less damage per spin. I'm pretty sure that won't ruin your game experience will it..

Plus, there aren't any other two slot point weapon options, others are either mortars or torps (exception is Railgun, but cooldown). Neither of those work on defender (edit: torps can, mortars can't)

 

See, this is what ticks me off. Someone has a perfectly good post but has to put in side comments on a snapshot thats supposed to be unbiased. Why mention selfish fixers at all, you make it really obvious that you don't prefer selfish fixers. Either that or I am bad a t detecting sarcasm.

 

Great analogy!

 

Right, it's OK for other to do less damage as long as it's not you. It's almost safe to say you don't use an EC.

Enforcer got few buffs lately but that's not what make it the meta right now is it? The reason why enforcers are the meta was because most of the counters for TS got nerfed harshly. Buffing or nerfing a ship stats is one way of making it better or worse but it's not the only way.

 

Mortars and torps don’t work on defender. That is a statement I have to agree with, you would think that a carronade can handle your close range while you run these items, but it’s not enough against boats loaded for nothing but CQB.
But that’s not to say you wouldn’t be a huge help at a distance, if your issue is trying to find short CD 2 slot weapons. Then missiles are great, just ask AM.
Also with the new quickshot perks the firebomb and napalm may work as well, although you won’t have any cannons to use them with.

 

You're reading too much in that comment, I didn't mean anything by it other than what it says. I mentioned it because it was relevant since I was discussing what items and setups people use. I should have probably left out the smiley face, I put it there as nod to the "heated" discussions there have been over selfish fixer specs.

As for my "stance" on selfish fixer: in my opinion it's a perfectly valid spec. I would even give it a try if I had the items for it.

missiles!

 

This has been suggested over in over in other threads. Buff defender.

Ex cannon nerf only showed how badly balanced defender was to other ships.

The bandaid was ripped off.

Yes there are other weapons...but as clearly shown in events. When the defender is allowed to fire faster. Or move faster with attributes. Defenders do well. We don't even need to be the only ones who receive a cooldow or attributes buffs. But give the big blues a chance to really move and fire. Take the mud off our turbo and firing and use events as a starting point.

So The solution is slapping everyone in the face. Events show how to do it.

It's just whether a bunch of shooters and yellow boats want the bay balanced to a 50 percent win ratio for every ship.
Or they like the top 50 being enforcer heaven.
And regular mode they would rather not be challenged and allow 1 ship to remain handicapped artificially.

Let's buff The Big Blue Ugly already.

 

Speaking to the lack of defenders ...

Possibly .. or there is a lack of other options to deal with the abundance of double bubble enforcers, so people are forced to use e-cannons .. See my post above for further explanation.

Defender vs anything other than a double bubble enforcer is a fair match - with maybe even an advantage to the defender. So, ship buffs would probably increase defender numbers slightly because they'd fare even better against every other ship type, but they're still getting destroyed by meta DB enforcers.

I agree that de-nerfing the e-cannon isn't the best solution here (although I do think the increased cooldown went too far).

Defenders are, however, a bit different than other ships. Speeders have the ability to get away from an enforcer and/or use their Tstun. Shooters have 5 weapons to cycle. Other Enforcers can Tstun or DB.

I agree that any of these combos would work fine ... against non double-bubble enforcers.

But that's where I see the issue. A defender can't stand toe-to-toe with a DB enforcer.

A max epic blast isn't cracking a max epic Tshield, so the dual blast option is out. The flare, ecannon combo gives you two Tshield breakers, but you're left with one shot.. So, regardless of whether you're trying to hit a faster, smaller, more agile ship with a carronade or grenade, or you're hitting them with straight (no burning) damage from a cannon, blast cannon, or ecannon, you're still taking 3 shots for each of yours.

Assuming all max epics here, let's say you're hit with a flare and dual blasts, you're taking somewhere around 6-7k damage with burning perks vs maybe the 1900 you can dish out each round of shots. (Not to mention that you're easier to hit and keep at a distance).

So, I'd say the best solution here is to reduce max epic T shield HPs to somewhere above cannon/sniper damage to somewhere below blast cannon damage - which would make defenders and alternative setups more viable.

**I think you'd also see a large reduction in E-cannon usage .. And get a better idea of how people truly value the nerfed version when they have other options.**