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Improve rail-gun cooldown perk

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Babablacksheep, 19 Apr 2018.

?

Does it need improvement

  1. Yes, increase the cooldown perk effect

    60.5%
  2. No, it's fine as it is

    39.5%
  1. Babablacksheep

    Babablacksheep Well-Known Member

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    Why is epic cool down perk weaker than rare damage,when you already sacrifice the burst damage of rail-gun by replacing damage with cool-down.


    Screenshot_20180418-213221.png
    Screenshot_20180418-213226.png
    (Notice the decrease in DPS)
     
  2. TheFixer27

    TheFixer27 Well-Known Member

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    Because it's there for

    A few 100000 Golds
     
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  3. Cryix

    Cryix Well-Known Member

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  4. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    @Blood Raven, can you post similar pictures of what the difference in perks does to a maxed Epic and high Legendary. Just wondering if the higher damage versions have the same "issue".
     
  5. A55A51N

    A55A51N Well-Known Member

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    Probably, since their base dmg is higher -> more increase by perk % and cooldown doesn’t change.
     
  6. Fiorell

    Fiorell Active Member

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    Hm...
    1682 / 20.2 = 83.3
    Seems to be a wrong DPS value with the -4% cooldown perk. The other one is correct.
    In addition, I guess the crit chance is not included in the DPS value.
     
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  7. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    Railgun can't crit.

    The Cooldown perk needs to be significantly more effective in order to be viable - as it is, the Railgun is far more valuable as a big-burst weapon. Its cooldown is only an issue on Defenders or low-level Shooters, as a high-level (Mk5+) Shooter has plenty of other guns to be firing, and the other ships generally have better weapon options or should be healing you most of the time.
     
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  8. Babablacksheep

    Babablacksheep Well-Known Member

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    Screenshot_20180419-191349~2.png
    Can you edit this to "Yes increase cooldown perk effect",Or something that's grammatically more correct lol..The poll option i wrote is bit confusing
     
    Last edited: 19 Apr 2018
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  9. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    Done. I voted for that one because I understood the intended message.
     
  10. Blood Raven

    Blood Raven Well-Known Member

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    I dont use railgun cooldown perks.
    But clearly, the dps difference will be even more for epic and legendary counterparts for a sinlge 8% rail damage perk vs (-4)% rail cooldown perk.

    Now onto the thread -
    I won't call it an 'issue' as because Cooldown perks << Damage perks. Likewise for healing items too, cooldown perks << healing items.

    The only time you should use cooldown perks is when you do not have damage perks.
     
  11. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    OK, let's calculate this from a DPS point of view:

    4 damage perks gives you 20% increased damage. Let's say you have Dr Buzzkill at lvl 20, giving you a total of 44% increased railgun damage. The % increase provided by perks is now (1.64/1.44 - 1)*100 = 13.9%

    4 cooldown perks gives you 16% reduced cooldown. Let's say you have Dr Buzzkill at lvl 20, giving you a total of 5% reduced railgun cooldown. 5% reduced cd means 95% cd, which means (1-(0.95)^(-1))*100 = 5.3% more damage. If we include the perks, it's 21% reduced cd, which means (1-(0.79)^(-1))*100 = 26.6% increased damage. Now to we can calculate the benefit of the perks: (1.266/1.053 - 1)*100 = 20.3%

    So, in a direct comparison of DPS, the cooldown perks win by far. I am aware that the linked cd perk is epic. If we change the perk value to 3% CD (the value of a rare perk), the perk DPS increase ends up at 14.6%. This is still more than the damage perks. Also, if someone has maxed Buzzkill, Bhurt or Brock, the cooldown perks will get even better relative to the damage perks.

    So no, I do not think they need a buff. The reason that CD perks are perceived as the worse choice is not that their numbers aren't balanced. If it were 5% for an epic instead of 4%, people would still take damage perks, simply because a large single hit is better than being able to fire the weapon more often, regardless of exactly how much more often. You'd have to drag the numbers very far out of balance for people to start taking CD perks.
     
  12. Blood Raven

    Blood Raven Well-Known Member

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    wrong. Damage perks >> cooldown.
    IMG_20180420_084802.jpg
    IMG_20180420_084752.jpg
    IMG_20180420_084757.jpg
    Bhurt and Brock dont have cooldown talents, they have point 'damage' talents thereby increasing the gap between damage and cd perks difference in favour of damage, not cd. (Apart from buzzkill, which is the railgun specialist crew member)
    It is clear as fine crystal saline water that damage perks are far better suited for railgun too. Just use the cd perks until you get the damage ones.
     
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  13. Crashedup

    Crashedup Well-Known Member

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    @Babablacksheep
    IMG-20180420-WA0005.jpg IMG-20180420-WA0004.jpg
    Here's my lvl legendary rg with base dmg of 1088.6 and base cd of 22.2 sec.
    I haven't equipped buzzkill talent no 7,11,17,18,26,27,29 and bhurt and Brock lvl 30 equipping them would give my RG a boost of 36% in dmg and 10% less cd
    So now the stats will be
    1088.6*.36 + 1426 = 1817.896 (dmg)
    22.2 * .9= 19.98 (cd)
    Now when cd perks are equipped( 3 perks since I can only equip 3 like rare rg)
    22.2*.12=2.664
    So new cd will be
    19.8-2.664= 17.316
    Dps = 1817.886/17.316=104.983
    When dmg perks are used(3 perks epic)
    (1088.6*.24)+1817.896= 2079.16
    Dps= 2079.16/19.98=104.06
    So in reality the cooldown perks provides better dps than dmg perks.
    The things is that rn your training lvl is quite low which leads to lower total dmg hence cd perks being not worth your while but as you will complete your training the cd perks will become more useful.
     
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  14. DarkImmortal

    DarkImmortal Active Member

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    Let me make my calculation base on my T5E Railgun
    - Base dmg is 1302
    - All relevant % bonus dmg from Crew Training: 78%
    - Buzzkill Cooldown talents : 10%

    + DPS base on Epic Cooldown perks
    Total % Cooldown reduction = 10% + 4x4% = 26%
    => New cooldown = 22.2 - (22.2*0.26) = 16.428
    Dmg = 1302 + (1302 * 0.78) = 2317.56
    => DPS = 2317.56 / 16.428 ~ 141.07

    + DPS base on Epic Dmg perks
    Total cooldown reduction = 10%
    Total % bonus dmg = 78% + 4x8% = 110%
    => Cooldown = 22.2 - (22.2 * 0.1) = 19.98 sec
    Dmg = 1302 + (1302 * 1.1) = 2734.2
    => DPS = 2734.2 / 19.98 ~ 136.84

    CONCLUSION: Full cooldown perks on Railgun create higher DPS compare to Dmg perks so Cooldown perks don't need to be buffed (theoretically). However, you don't really have a chance to always take a shot when your Railgun is available in battles ( not to mention that your dmg will be reduced when you get too close to enemy ship), Dmg perks is still more effective on Railgun and Cooldown perks need a little buff :D
     
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  15. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    That's not how that works. Damage talents do not increase the gap in favour of damage. Let me explain with a simple example:

    Say you have 0% damage increases anywhere, and equip an 8% damage perk on a weapon. Now, the perk gives you 8% more damage compared to before. Pretty straightforward, right?

    Now say you have 50% damage increases in the passive tree. It doesn't matter if those are weapon specific buffs or point damage buffs since they stack the same way. Now the benefit an 8% damage perk gives you is much smaller, because it stacks additively, and you already had bonus damage. Calculation: 1.58/1.5 = 1.053, meaning you only get 5.3% more damage compared to before you equipped the perk.

    The more damage buffs you already have, the less effective damage perks become, on any weapon. This is because perk % damage stacks additively with all other sources of % damage in Battle Bay.
     
    Last edited: 20 Apr 2018
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  16. Earel

    Earel Active Member

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    Just 5 cent adding to discuss) Rail it’s shooter / fixer weapon ONLY! Shooter has 5 active item and fixer 6 active items so they don’t need cd perks... rail it’s huge burst damage weapon directly hit a single target. Moreover in my point of view ship doesn’t need more than one) but high master goodlike equip 2!
     
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  17. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    The issue with Railgun cooldown reduction is that as often as you have an issue of "it's not ready to fire" you can also run into "I have no good shot to take" whether your target is too close to maximize damage, behind a wave/cover, or straight up "already dead because 20 seconds is a long engagement"

    So making the one shot you do get hurt as much as possible is more valuable.
     
  18. Blood Raven

    Blood Raven Well-Known Member

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    Thats a good evaluation but as dark immortal mentioned in his post below too, practically damage is better than cooldown perks.
    I had done the calculations for this way before when i got my first railgun cooldown perk.
    My point wasn't that your calculations were wrong, in fact i appreciate the long math and amount of effort put by you (and dark immortal too) to get to know which is better 'theoretically'.
    But practically, thats not the case. I was jumping to the conclusion that damage perks >> cooldown perks, since this thread is about the comparison which is better, and what you need is practical effectiveness. but guess i'll elaborate a little -

    One could argue that with less cooldown you can fire more shots (say with 20 cd you fire 3 shots in a min, with 15 cd you fire 4) and get more damage, but BUT, practically that is not the case most of the time.

    As chris already mentioned, reasons such as waves (major hinderance) and not being at a good distance away from the enemy and positioning to shoot will already take up most of your time and you'll find yourself a lot more with having your rail ready to shoot, but still have to wait for clear aim or positioning.

    You'd feel like your cd perks are not effective at all.
    From my personal experience, there are many moments when rail cooldown is long over, and am ready to land shots but still have to wait due to practical battle factors. (Also include ts cooldown of enfos)

    Also we all know there's a +/- 10% (or so) extra damage boost or a deduction in damage for each shot (its not that you get the exact damage value shown always) and that would be obviously be more (taking +%) for rail with damage perks than cd ones. Practical examples include my epic railgun which shows ~2.7k but does 2.9k+ sometimes (at 100% or more range) thanks to the extra damage boost, which would definitely be lesser if you use cd perks.

    I believe each and every weapon is ideal at their maximum damage output (than lower cooldown), and railgun is no exception, in fact as stated above its especially harder with rail which gives a good probability of missing shots as well, so not that you can continuously get shots and make use of your low cd than better damage. You'd definitely prefer to have optimum damage possible in a shot then.

    And thats the reason why you'll never see the top railguns in the bay with cd perks. (Zetton for example. Prefers 12 damage perks even though all of them are not epic, instead of replacing a rare one with epic cd one).
     
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  19. DrLuigiPhd

    DrLuigiPhd Active Member

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    I just got a legendary railgun and was considering running it as a second on my shooter along with epic with 4 dmg perks. To help with with the long cooldowns I was thinking about running 3 cooldown perks so that’s its available more often
     
  20. American Marauder

    American Marauder Well-Known Member

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    Count me in for an overall better cool down time for RG. And let's fix the nerf to Explosive Cannon... 14.4 seconds is too long. Why not in the middle at 13.3? You nerfed the distance at the same time. Cut us some slack please...
     

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