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DevReply I'm so close to quitting..

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Flipscuba, 14 Apr 2018.

  1. Fluid Bait

    Fluid Bait Well-Known Member

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    Well, you start with one boat, and then you buy(unlock) the other boats. Isn't it the same feeling, except you get to unlock it much faster?
     
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  2. Rainbow Warrior

    Rainbow Warrior Well-Known Member

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    I guess you're right
     
  3. Crashedup

    Crashedup Well-Known Member

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    @Miika can we get this data?
     
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  4. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    What are stat categories?
     
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  5. StrictSalmon307

    StrictSalmon307 Well-Known Member

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    health, speed, defense, stuff like that I suppose.
     
  6. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    The reason I asked, was so we wouldn’t have to suppose. Maybe the stats are for things like the aforementioned ‘distance travelled’, which means nothing.
     
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  7. StrictSalmon307

    StrictSalmon307 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure that's what he means though, considering shooter does have pretty good speed, agility and defense.
     
  8. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    I’d like to know ‘exactly’ what he means, so I can poke holes in it.

    Data can be very useful, but it can also be very misleading if you don’t know the details of how it was collected, and what it actually represents... hence the saying: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics”.

    My experience is that Shooters are a bit too good, are able to do way more damage, and get more stars. This is also evidenced by them being massively overused — which I think speaks for itself: people wouldn’t be ‘lazy’ about changing, if the ship wasn’t good.

    If Miika has data that ‘he claims’ disproves that. I’d like to know what that data is, and the methodology behind it. Else it’s just an empty claim.

    Here is a fun video, that explains how lifesaving helmets were almost abandoned during WW1, because erroneously collected data, made it look as if they were causing more injuries.

    You wouldn’t think helmets would cause more injuries? It defies common sense, just like Shooters being balanced, despite massive overuse also defies common sense. But that’s what the data said... However, the devil is in the details.
     
  9. YerJokinArnYer

    YerJokinArnYer MVP

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    I doubt there is one single statistic which proves which ship is best. It is probably a mixture of several statistics (av damage caused, win rate, etc etc) that are needed to be reviewed. Even then, conclusions from data are subjective and you will rarely get two experts who agree on an opinion.

    So in terms of being able to judge who has the best conclusions we would need to look at who has access to the best data, and who is best at interpreting the data that they are seeing (who is the best ‘expert’?)

    Now, if a person who has way more data than me, whose job is related to that data (as compared to it being my hobby) and has no incentive to be dishonest, tells me something, then I’m inclined to believe them as that is the more likely outcome. However, I will admit that it is possible (but not likely) that Miika has drawn the wrong conclusion.

    So, I’m not saying that you’re wrong about shooters, but it is more likely that Miika is right. (Please don’t take that as an insult - it is not intended to be personal)

    PS, I liked the video
     
  10. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    That’s fair enough.

    But I would caution that competitive players leaning more towards a particular strategy/item over others, is almost always indicative of some kind of balance issue. The number of Shooters in Battle Bay is more than a leaning, it’s off the chart slanted (I would guess at least 50-60% of players are maining Shooter), when 20-30% is what you should really expect with 5 well balanced ships.

    If it’s not obvious why from the data, then I would hazard that they’re just not looking hard enough.

    Also, I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that a Dev is impartial. It’s actually extremely difficult for people to remain objective about thier own creations. They naturally want to believe that they have made a great game with good balance, so will tend to find data that corroborates that point of view, that’s just human nature.

    I’m not even saying Miika is wrong. I’m just asking him to explain a bit more about what he’s claiming, so we can understand it better (though I don’t imagine he’ll be back now).
     
    Last edited: 15 Apr 2018
  11. SupremeCalamitas

    SupremeCalamitas Well-Known Member

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    Speeders are not cowards. They are strategic.
     
  12. SupremeCalamitas

    SupremeCalamitas Well-Known Member

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    -remembering times when died quickly and defender stayed alive for 3 minutes-
     
  13. ElMataC

    ElMataC Member

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    I'm just happy we got a confirmation that developers use and care about actual data, and at the sam time I'm "disappointed" by some people's negativity.
    Keep it up devs!
     
  14. F.QTR

    F.QTR Active Member

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    Was that Ace 2 or 1 ? Because everyone use enforcer in NM ? I got a question for you how many defenders in top 200 ? 4 , 5 ? I don’t play defender I know it’s a worthless ship? The stats is for ACE for sure.
     
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  15. F.QTR

    F.QTR Active Member

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    Good luck. I can give you numbers too. 5 defender in top 200
     
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  16. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    Let's be honest here... the goal of Battle Bay is to kill, right? You kill with guns. Shooter, being only ship with more than 3 guns is going to, by default, be the most popular ship... not because it's OP, but because it matches the goal of the game the best. If we had a 4-gun boat, you would see a HUGE migration to it from both sides, mark my words. Where is the 4-gun boat??
     
  17. Spinners71

    Spinners71 Well-Known Member

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    The goal is to win.
    One win condition is killing the enemies.
    But there is an alternate win condition (capturing the green circle) that doesn't involve any killing.

    It's important to be both accurate and precise with your words.

    That said, the alternate win condition is rarely a viable strategy, so yeah, it's mostly killing.

    That said, Shooter isn't necessarily the best at killing. Neither # guns nor total damage dealt are the only factors that go into killing (winning).

    Survivability, deception, maneuverability, distraction, communication... There are many more factors.

    Shooters are good at doing damage... But only when everything lines up well for them to do it (i.e the other team is exposed). At lower infamy, enemies are overexposed a lot, so shooter is going to feel powerfula lot. At higher infamy, shooters don't fare as well against more careful opponents, at least not before the battle breaks down from the careful stage to the charge stage.

    Anyway, my point is, after about infamy 2000, and mk5+, every boat has its place in the tactical match. Every boat can equally contribute to wins in many non-Shooter ways.

    People mostly just like shooters because they like weapon variety, or they don't like the actual play style of the other ships. Not because they're better at winning.
     
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  18. Rainbow Warrior

    Rainbow Warrior Well-Known Member

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    People also like shooter because it is the easiest boat to play ;)
     
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  19. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    As you mention capture is a less than 1% situation, so let's just consider it a threat strategy, while damage and kills remain the #1 requirement for a win.

    I want to clarify some of your assertions though. Yes Shooters are more effective boats at the beginning game than they are at end game, but end game is a small fraction of the player base. I firmly believe Shooter is the most important boat up through, say 3500 infamy, when players finally understand how to use a yellow boat, but even at 2500 infamy Yellow boats are pretty ineffective... just horrible for the most part.. not the boat, but the tactics used by the player. They all cowboy off rather than support their teammates.

    What good is a stun when you're all alone with 2 guns when your opponent has 5 and twice your hit points? Stun an enemy where you have 15 friendly guns ready to unload on them. Stun the enemy trying to kill your Fixer. Does an Enforcer have the Speed to get behind enemy lines and safely return? Not unless they sacrifice their yellow slots for speed items... at which point they should be a Speeder. We need their meddling ways BY the rest of the team, causing chaos and helping to protecting the Fixer and the guns boats that deal the most damage. It is rare any yellow boat exceeds my damage or kills as a Shooter.. that's without question, and it's expected because they sacrifice weapons slots for support items.

    In other words each boat has it's tactical place, is just as valuable as the other, and it should almost always be in support of your teammates, not to be a cowboy hero, dying in fire, alone, without even a single kill for your misguided efforts. It's so frustrating I spend the first part of every match trying to remind people of this... sometimes it works, and the other times we just watch the cowboy die in the distance for nothing. Here's your participation badge.
     
  20. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    I'd argue that Defender and Fixer are easier. A Defender only has a few guns to worry about. A Fixer is like an Enforcer that only has to shoot their own teammates nearby. Playing effectively is a whole other story though... in that all boats are difficult. When I played Enforcer for a while I realized how bad most players are at Shooter because I needed them to do their jobs. What I realized, after going over 100 games, is that 11% of all my teammates issue less than their infamy in damage.... almost all were Shooters and Defenders. Is that because it's hard or because of lack of skill? I don't know... but I'd assert that it's obviously it's not easy.
     
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