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Gear score is a step towards proper matchmaking!

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Help I Cant Swim, 22 Mar 2018.

  1. Crashedup

    Crashedup Well-Known Member

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    Gear score seems like it heavily based on ships mk rather than actual gear
    Thundersword(lvl50) gear score is 11179 with two rare items whereas flare crotch(lvl 59) gear score is 11986 with all tier 5 epic items and one tier 4 legendary.
    Bittersteel (48)has gear score of almost 12k and Banderas (50)has gear score of 14.4k and there is a huge difference in Thier gear
     
  2. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it was in response to the tanking problem. People were complaining about ship mk difference across the board. I always rather enjoyed being put in matches with high nightmare players while in Ace I, but not everyone did. Some people came to the forums to whine as soon as they saw their first mk7 on the enemy team.
     
    opp and YerJokinArnYer like this.
  3. DragonLegend

    DragonLegend Well-Known Member

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    Thats where Skills come in...we will have same gear score but Skills will always be different.
    Also In this game Teamwork plays a big role.
    So you won't be stuck. And even if it takes longer time to inc. infamy, Every Match will be so much fun with everyone everyone with similar gear score.
    Whats unfair is a skill player getting overpowered by noob with high gears.
     
  4. Spinners71

    Spinners71 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree. A system based on gear/ship/captain would be terrible.

    A system based 100% on gear/ship/captain would be bad...
    A system based 90% on gear/ship/captain would be bad...
    A system based 80% on gear/ship/captain would be bad...
    ...
    At what point does it turn to good?
    I'll give you a clue...
    0%

    It's an ingredient that ruins the recipe.

    Pure Infamy is 100% utopia for MM (you actually say this yourself at the bottom of your post...)

    Given that ship-mk adds impurity to the algorithm, it's not weird that players experience this...
    What's weird is that Rovio decided to add these impurities despite knowing this would happen.

    So why introduce impurity? Why suggest it?

    I want you carefully explain something to me...
    Be as precise as possible...
    Exactly what problem are you trying to solve?

    By asking this, my hope is that you will discover that, although there are real problems with tanking, adding impurities to the MM algorithm is the wrong solution -- better solutions exist!)

    100% agree!
    Let's properly define the problems, then build proper solutions -- all of which is possible while leaving the MM algorithm purely based on Infamy.

    It's not hard.
    The one really great idea you've shared in other parts of this thread is the concept of a "floor", where strong players simply cannot tank low enough to ruin new player experience.
    Before "gear score" was implemented today, I think you and I actually discussed building these floors based on ship-level - and I think we agreed that it would be a net good thing, with very few downsides.
    I actually think "gear score" (assuming how it's calculated makes sense -- which I haven't really studied yet) would be an even better metric by which to build these floors. So, I'm hopeful that Rovio will do exactly this.
     
  5. Snapshot

    Snapshot Well-Known Member

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    I would prefer to fix infamy first and then see if matchmaking is still a problem. I'm loath to put in a bunch more artificial rules & boundaries like their current seal clubbing rule. Right now, people are just doing what Rovio tells them to do (seal clubbing). If Rovio were to say something different than I suspect an awful lot of the current tankers would suddenly rise in infamy.
     
    Babablacksheep likes this.
  6. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    What I don't think that you understand is the reality of our current situation. We already have an "impure" matchmaking system and it does not look like the devs are able/willing to revert to a purely infamy based system. If they would revert to purely infamy based (with additional seal-clubbing prevention), then that is obviously the best choice and I've already stated that. You even echoed that I had stated that.

    However, that is not reality. The reality is that we are in an impure matchmaking system. And the current impurity could be vastly improved upon by actually using a "gear score" that reflects the strength of your ship. When they introduced the Mk impurity, people were whining for the wrong reason. They thought that higher Mk ships were automatically stronger than lower ones, when in reality the player's gear is usually far more important. If they are going to use an impure matchmaking system, then they need to accurately account for the strength of a player's entire loadout, not just the ship Mk. That is my argument. You either abandon impure matchmaking or you account for more than just the Mk.


    What do you mean by "fix infamy"? That sounds great, but isn't a real or tangible solution to anything.
     
  7. Kalbs

    Kalbs Well-Known Member

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    Gear score?! What is this game?! A generic Chinese P2W MMORPG?!
     
    Miathan likes this.
  8. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    @Spinners71, @Snapshot, @Ash KOT, @Miathan...

    In an ideal world, the solution to matchmaking sounds simple...

    First, remove ship Mk from the algorithm altogether. Matching is solely based on infamy.

    Second, determine a strict, infallible way to prevent seal clubbing.
    The ideal method would be to properly scale rewards with infamy. This would have to include completing guild quests as well, since you'd still be able to cheat to complete quests easier. However, this would be extremely difficult.
    The real method would be to implement an infamy floor like what I've suggested. No matter how low your apparent infamy goes, the matchmaking will always matchmake you based on an infamy floor calculated from your gear/ship/captain level. It might actually stop your infamy from decreasing or it might just be behind the scenes. I think it would work better if it was hidden.
    In addition to the infamy floor, the rewards probably need to scale with your infamy. I know that the season rewards scale, but those occur far too infrequently to be enticing to most. The end-of-game rewards need to increase as you gain infamy.

    However, we are not living in an ideal world and I highly doubt the devs are going to reverse the addition of ship Mk in matchmaking. I hope they do. But if they don't and they insist upon having an impure matchmaking system, then using the gear score instead of or in conjunction with the ship mk IS a better alternative to our current system.
     
  9. Snapshot

    Snapshot Well-Known Member

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    Step by step...

    1. Rovio wanted a skill based system rather than a gear based one.
    2. They designe infamy to measure your skill
    3. They based the matchmaking then off the infamy

    The problem is that infamy does not measure skill. Rather, it measures the perceived min/max point of the player within his skill bounds. That wouldn't be a problem if the min/max was also at or near the top of the player's potential infamy but it is not. Rather, the min/max is at the very bottom of the player's potential infamy. So infamy does not represent skill and any systems based upon it, such as matchmaking, are corrupted.

    Put differently, infamy is corrupted because their reward and incentive structure strongly encourages tanking. So a person in a M5 at 500 infamy might be a really poor player but it's way more likely that 500 just represents their perceived "sweet spot".
     
    Da Carronade King likes this.
  10. Spinners71

    Spinners71 Well-Known Member

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    BLIND ALGORITHM + STATIC GEAR
    Imagine a matchmaking algorithm that takes absolutely nothing into account.
    It takes the first 10 players who queue up, splits randomly into 2 teams, and sends them off to battle each other.
    If everyone had exactly the same gear (ships/weapons were all identical, and nothing could ever be leveled up)...
    ...then this is a system where skilled players can (and should) win more than 50% of the time.
    ... and poor skill players lose more than 50% of the time.
    Poor skill players typically stop playing these types of games, and they go find another game.
    (Not something most profit-seeking game companies want.)

    BLIND ALGORITHM + GEAR PROGRESSION
    Now imagine where ships/weapons aren't identical. Gear can be leveled up over time (i.e. progression).
    If the algorithm is still "blind" to everything, then life for basically everyone gets even worse.
    All the best gear may be concentrated on one team or another...
    Skill begins to play a smaller and smaller role...
    Gear progression dictates winning now.
    Because if skill no longer determines the winner - it's just the LUCK from the blind algorithm for which team is stronger, and the stronger you are compared to the average, the more often that "luck" favors your team.
    It's P2W heaven.
    ...and it's a recipe for failure.
    ...and game companies don't build games this way.

    LADDER ALGORITHM + STATIC GEAR
    Imagine having static gear again.
    But now, as your higher skill causes you to win against average players, you will now climb a ranking ladder.
    And then, the algorithm matches you against similarly-ranked players on that ladder.
    Again, gear is static.
    So, this is purely a skill-ladder.
    Eventually, unless you are the #1 most skilled player ever, you will eventually rise (or fall) to a spot on that ladder where you no longer win (or lose) more than 50% of the time.
    You will settle out at 50% win rate.
    And all of this is amazing because all your games are against equally skilled opponents.
    So, every game is fair, competitive, and fun!

    LADDER ALGORITHM + GEAR PROGRESSION
    And here we are. Our reality.
    We already know from above, that if the game has Gear Progression, then a Blind algorithm will not be healthy.
    So we need a Ladder-type algorithm.
    The problem is, it won't be purely a skill-ladder anymore.
    Now it's a ladder based on the combination of skill+gear.
    But --- and this is very important ---
    The algorithm needs to user their current place in the ladder (however they got there) to determine how they get matched.
    Players will then navigate up/down the ladder naturally (based on how well they can utilize their own unique combination of skill+gear).
    Let's call this a "natural ladder."

    The algorithm should not try use pure gear to predict where they belong in the ladder, and then use that to change how they would otherwise have been matched.
    If it did, that actually creates parallel ladders (each based on static gear score), where each match is like a blind algorithm for that gear level.
    Which puts us back in the scenario where poor skill players lose a lot and quit.

    So, should the algorithm use some gear to do a little bit of predicting?
    No. It adds no value.

    However... we still have problems in this game...

    PROBLEMS
    Even when we had a natural ladder algorithm (pure Infamy), strong players are often found to be lower in the ladder than where they "honestly should be".
    Is it because their combination of skill+gear won't let them climb?
    No.
    It's because they are rewarded for something else.

    Some incentives exist in this game that are directly tied to ladder rank.
    But some Incentives exist in this game that are not directly tied to ladder rank.
    If the non-ladder incentives outweigh the ladder incentives, then players find themselves improperly ranked.

    When improperly ranked players have no incentive to climb, then in a natural ladder algorithm, players will be paired based on their current rank.
    Which means we're essentially back to a game with GEAR PROGRESSION + BLIND ALGORITHM, where players who are vastly outmatched are still matched together.
    We already showed that this is highly undesirable.

    SOLUTIONS
    So.... was the natural ladder the problem?
    Or... were the imbalanced incentives the problem?

    (Answer = the imbalanced incentives were the problem.)

    Thus, the fix should NOT be to change the ladder to pure gear (obviously).
    But the fix should also NOT be to change the ladder to a hybrid of position+gear either.
    That would be trying to fix something that was never broken.

    The fix SHOULD BE to correct the imbalanced incentives.
    Ladder rewards should be vastly more desirable than non-ladder rewards (such as guild rivalry rewards).
    Ladder rewards should scale up significantly enough so that players want to climb. No player should be able to say "well, if I drop 500 infamy the rewards are basically just as good."

    If you do this, tanking (at any level) won't ever completely go away (it'd be like trying to convince everyone to never troll on Twitter ever again).
    But it would drastically reduce.
    Players will pursue the best incentives. Let's make those incentives encourage climbing.

    You could even eliminate the awful rule where players who fall -800 Infamy stop earning ladder rewards.
    Losing -800 Infamy is actually not outside the realm of natural possibility even when that player is trying their best!
    It's an awful rule...
    If they want to keep the rule, then make it a % of your highest infamy (like -50%), not a flat 800.
    And make it so players below this threshold stop earning ALL rewards (ladder rewards AND guild rewards).
    But I hate the rule altogether. It should be removed...

    Once you fix incentives, and things improve, if there was any need to further prevent players from intentionally dropping (for troll reasons), then all you need to put in place is "gear score floors" where if you reach a certain gear score, you can't fall below a certain infamy. I've talked about these kinds of floors in other threads, and there's very little downside.

    Ok, that's all I have time to write. Hopefully this has inspired some thoughtful consideration somewhere...
     
    opp, Ian, Da Carronade King and 3 others like this.
  11. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    Wow that was a novel :p. Yes, they could scale the end-of game rewards so it entices players to not tank. That is easy and sounds great....

    But what about guild quests?
     
  12. Snapshot

    Snapshot Well-Known Member

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    I've pondered the guild quests and I start with the assumption that they must be matched to infamy. So the next obvious step is to scale quest rewards based on the infamy level the battle was fought at. Fighting <1k battles would yield few tickets. Then I'd put a "cheap, medium, and expensive" boards in so noobs could use their small ticket counts to buy small raffle items. Tankers could fight at the low level if they chose, but it's going to take them forever to put together enough tickets to draw off the medium or expensive boards.

    There are probably a jillion other methods. But somehow the reward must be directly tied to the infamy of the battle it was accrued in.
     
  13. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    This is a great post, I hope the devs read it!
     
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  14. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    That sounds miserable to code for. I think you are underestimating how difficult that would be to implement. I think the easiest solution would be to just install the infamy floor like I've described. Otherwise you are making the situation far more complex.
     
  15. Snapshot

    Snapshot Well-Known Member

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    Sure, it'd be the easy solution. The seal clubbing penalty was also an easy solution. Easy solutions to complex problems tend to not solve the problem but they spawn new problems... just as the seal clubbing rule did.
     
  16. YerJokinArnYer

    YerJokinArnYer MVP

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    I think I’m going to need to read this a few times to take it all in, but this is exactly the type of post that I’m interested in on this forum. Thank you.
     
  17. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    That was an easily awful solution with a simple exploit. How would you exploit mine?
     
  18. Snapshot

    Snapshot Well-Known Member

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    Your solution is harder to exploit but the most obvious method is by manipulating the gear score. As a high level player I have access to an entire inventory full of stuff. I can build out pretty much anything I want. I'd experiment to see if keeping both my infamy and gear score low resulted in low infamy matches. If so, wonderful and we're off to the races.

    My larger concern with what you've proposed isn't how to exploit it. It's in the unintended consequences like how the seal clubbing rule traps legit players way more than actual tankers. More to the point, before we put in a ton of artificial boundaries I'd like to know that it's really necessary. I don't think you can tell anything at all about the lower infamies with the incentive structure as it is right now.

    I'm not a huge fan of bandaids on bullet holes and that's basically what you've proposed. I'd rather fix the core problem.

    *** edited to add ***
    In my experience there are always loopholes and if you strongly encourage people to find them, they will. Best not to encourage people to cheat to start with.
     
  19. Gnu

    Gnu Well-Known Member

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    Certainly agree. Here is from a rare gear player in nightmare point of view...
    How can i find a match, with that low of gear level at 9015 on my Enforcer, plus my infamy being at 5000 in infamy?
    My conclusion? I'll get matched with low ace players from both teams and i'll kill them easily. Or i get stupid matchmaking.

    @Help I Cant Swim I think it is not the time yet to discuss about mmr and gear score, there are too many tankers and high climbing rare gear players. Matchmaking can be loopholed if it was in terms of gear score.
     
  20. Spinners71

    Spinners71 Well-Known Member

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    Something else to consider....
    Gear score was added to the game, but not for matchmaking...
    It got added because I believe Rovio wants to introduce tournament game modes.
    It's a way of matching players with equal gear and letting skill determine the tournament winner and get the prize.

    And while this is all speculation on my party, it sounds awesome to me!
     

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