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Carronade is uniquely hampered by it's talent tree

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by Help I Cant Swim, 25 Nov 2017.

  1. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    TL;DR: Make defense damage reduction for Carronade based on total damage, not per pellet. Rearrange Swift's Talent tree to only have Carronade vs. Overboost/Nitro choices and not Carronade vs. ship choices.


    The Carronade is one of the most difficult weapons to use, if not the most difficult. It has the least range and is penalized multiple times by opponent's defense points.

    On top of that, the Carronade is the ONLY WEAPON THAT HAS A COUNTERINTUITIVE TALENT TREE.

    I am suggesting 2 changes to the Carronade to make it a viable weapon at all infamies and levels. Right now, the Carronade is only really effective at the highest levels. The reason is because you also have your turbo, overboost and nitro highly leveled to make up for the Talent tree costs of using the Carronade.

    Change One: Total Damage Reduction due to Defense Points
    The first change is simple and should never have even been a problem. The issue is that if you shoot somebody with the carronade, each pellet suffers from their defense point reduction. So if you are shooting 7 pellets, the reduction is SEVEN TIMES THEIR DEFENSE. The Carronade is the only weapon that suffers so much from this. This might not seem like a massive issue to someone sporting a Tier 5 Epic Carronade doing 200+ damage per shot, but what about the uncommon/rare Carronade user that does under 100 per shot? A Defender can negate almost all of the Carronade's damage, rendering it useless. The damage reduction for Carronade needs to be changed to a total reduction rather than a per pellet reduction.

    Change Two: Rearrange Swift's Talent Tree
    I believe that Swift's Talent tree needs to be rearranged to where the Carronade does not conflict with ship speed or hp. I am okay with it conflicting with overboost or nitro talents since there has to be some trade-off and not just pure gain.


    Follow me for a second while I connect the dots... The Carronade is on Swift's Talent Tree, which is focused on Speeders. The Speeder is really the only ship that can use a Carronade effectively. However, the most important aspect to a Speeder is it's speed. Finally, using a Carronade requires you to give up speed, as well as turning and health.

    There is not a single other weapon that requires this much sacrifice. You are basically hampering your Speeder by choosing to use Carronade.

    In order to effectively use a Carronade, you MUST give up this:
    • 10% speed to all ships
    • -10% Nitro cooldown
    • 10% improvement to Overboost
    • 20% faster Speeder

    And you MIGHT give up this:
    • 5% faster turning for all ships
    • -20% Nitro cooldown
    • 4% boost to Speeder hp

    Why is it that a weapon meant for Speeders actually hampers a Speeder for choosing that weapon? There is not a single other weapon that does this...

    For comparison, I have listed what each crew member's sacrifices are for their respective weapons in the pictures below.

    synergies.png
    without synergies.png

    Before you clamor and say "well you trade off a lot of frost stuff to use Grenades", observe that I have listed the Grenade costs as "without synergies" because using frost does not directly affect using Grenades. From what I've observed, grenades and frosts are usually not used together since frost is typically paired with mortars or torpedoes and grenades are usually paired with cannons. This is different for Carronade since every Speeder will be using overboost and many will be using Nitro.

    From the images above, the only other weapon that has common conflicts with another item on it's talent tree is Fire Bomb and shields. However, that conflict is for EVERY ship, not just for the specific ship that is on that talent tree (Defender). Also, none of the trade-offs greatly negatively impact the other item and the Fire Bomb is still perfectly viable without the conflicting talents.


    It is time for a change. I do not believe that making these changes will make the Carronade overpowered. I think that you will see it more often, especially on Speeders and Enforcers (and maybe Fixers). I think the major impact these changes will have is it will make the Carronade more used in lower infamies and levels. You won't have to have a maxed out Carronade and Swift, as well as maxed out turbo, overboost, nitro and shields, in order to make the Carronade effective.

    -Help I Cant Swim
    #careforcarronade​
     
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  2. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    I would use a carro if these changes were made. However, the carro has one of the largest unperked single shot damage of any oneslot on the game, plus those badass slowdowns. At higher levels, it would probably become the new assassin speeder meta. I'm not qualified for the Nightmare effects of this, though.
     
  3. Disguised

    Disguised Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with you about carronade needing a buff, as there are many other weapons that need a buff significantly more like the tri torpedo.
    And about what you said, missile launcher is also a weapon that defender's can be "immune" to. Another problem is that defenders need defence points because they are so slow and giving the carronade such power will actually "nerf" the defender(slightly).
    The carronade is also an anti speeder weapon because of its slow effects. And the fact that speeders like staying up close, makes it more of an anti speeder weapon.
     
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  4. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    I really don't think so. It still has a huge risk if not used properly. In Nightmare league, the speed costs probably don't even matter because they can have a maxed out turbo to max out speed anyways. The 10% overboost improvement is probably negligible; Nitro is usually traded out for Tesla Shield at mk6; 5% turning is negligible. The only real loss at the top would be 4% hp, which is only for an additional 10% turret slowing, but it can be overcome with shields.

    I think that the large majority of players (non-Nightmare) would benefit without really changing it's role at the very top.
     
  5. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    Agree on all points. But I personally think that the defender gains too much immunity to carro way too fast, making carro worse than useless at lower infamies.
     
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  6. Disguised

    Disguised Well-Known Member

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    Well, imo(as I said) carronade is an anti speeder weapon, not anti defender weapon. It's anti speeder during battle and in crew tree.
     
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  7. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    I agree that there are other weapons that also need buffs. I can make a case for those too, but this case was just for Carronade :).

    I would be perfectly fine with Missile Launcher receiving the same change as the Carronade. It seems silly that the defense points are per pellet/missile for a multi-shot weapon and therefore compound the defense towards those weapons.

    This would not make it any less of an anti-Speeder weapon. It will just make it more of a pro-Speeder weapon.
     
  8. Disguised

    Disguised Well-Known Member

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    Defense points are pretty useless except for denying multiple projectile weapons(excluding tri torpedo), which are very powerful items in higher leagues.
     
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  9. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    Could there possibly be a middle ground? Maybe a reduction in defense points per pellet landed. For example, the first pellet that hit gets the full defense, second gets 75%, third 50%, fourth 25% and anything after that hits full force. The numbers might need tweaking, but the idea might be a good compromise.
     
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  10. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    I think carronade is meant to be a speeder counter, rather than ‘the best’ speeder weapon. So the clashes on Swift’s tree are probably there on purpose.

    However, I think the carronade does need a buff at lower levels, since the level 1 rare effectively does zero damage against mk4 shooters and defenders (which is ~90% of ships at that stage in the game).

    Here is what I would suggest:

    1. Nerf sniper crit at short range: there is no reason to ever waste a slot on such a specialised ‘anti-speeder’ weapon, when the sniper is so versatile and effective at short range.

    2. Remove extra defence points on shooter: there is no reason for them to have this, they’re not defenders, and they’re not even that slow. I could understand if it protected from mortar splash, but it doesn’t, it’s just a totally unneeded bonus, for an already overused ship. Removing this defense would make carronade viable against ‘most’ ships.

    3. Rearrange Swift’s tree to spread some of the carronade buffs earlier. This would allow carronade to ramp up more smoothly, and it would be nice for speeders, fixers, and enforcers to not have to spend millions of sugar getting past the useless wall of carronade buffs defending t4.
     
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  11. Babablacksheep

    Babablacksheep Well-Known Member

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    The only change i agree to,The base damage of carro should be increased without affecting end game and also the 6th projectile upgrade should be available early.That would make that more useful at start of the game..

    Something they just did with frost launcher
     
    Last edited: 26 Nov 2017
  12. Babablacksheep

    Babablacksheep Well-Known Member

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    @ViscountSniffit you must be supersolid at marketing in real life:D:D As you mention your points all kinds of twisted way to plant idea in developer's mind.Should i say i m impressed(No Homo). IMG_6026.jpg
     
  13. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    Ikr? He'd make an awesome diplomat(if he isn't already?)
     
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  14. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know what you mean. I’m just here ‘innocently’ discussing ways to help carronade :rolleyes:

    However, in my defense, my only ulterior motive is a well balanced game. A highly specialised weapon like the carronade will never get a look-in while a more versatile option is intruding on its niche.

    Unbalanced items will, ultimately, affect many aspects of the game, and reduce the number of viable build options. I think carronade is probably the most obvious casualty of that.
     
  15. Babablacksheep

    Babablacksheep Well-Known Member

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    It was joke haha,Not diverting thread to off topic i will confess even i think "sniper" is just two much some times:)(You just took me on anti sniper side even tho i use one:rolleyes:,Because i share the same motive)
     
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  16. EyeOfDoom

    EyeOfDoom Well-Known Member

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    TLDR: No. It shoots 7 different projectiles and defence points reduced damage per projectiles. That's the ground rule of the game and it should stay that way.

    Defender and shooters to some extent are the only ships with decent defence. Other 3 have pathetic defence anyway and even tier 3 rare carronades have no hard time melting them.

    Every weapon is designed to do its own thing and has its pros and cons. Some weapons are not worth it at lower rarity or level (railgun, missile, carronade) because they're so good at higher levels and that's just the way things are.

    If I wanted to see more mortars in nightmare league I'd start suggesting cannon level speed, bigger radius etc etc to deal with speeders but no, because that's just how the weapon is designed to work. Some weapons are just not meant to take down certain ships ( except sniper but we got separate thread for that)

    I'm fine with minor buffs here and there. But suggestions to alter fundamentals of the game I'll simply not agree with.
     
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  17. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    Why not make a two slot "armor-piercing carronade" for those who may wish to make it a pro-speeder weapon? A carro with no slowdown, but which bypasses armor like @ViscountSniffit said? The 50, 75% decrement.
     
  18. EyeOfDoom

    EyeOfDoom Well-Known Member

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    New items are always welcomed.
     
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  19. Babablacksheep

    Babablacksheep Well-Known Member

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    Exactly as Eye of doom said,This can actually be a new weapon idea, 2 slot big carronade 11.1s cooldown can pierce any armour,damage similar to carronade.
     
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  20. PastelPiku

    PastelPiku Well-Known Member

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    You would not believe how many defenders (and sometimes shooters) are completely impervious to my carronade. At low infamy, this weapon is objectively outmatched by the cannon.
     
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