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Another way to bring more players to Ranked ( Kinda hybrid version of Ranked and Casual )

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by Su-57, 9 Apr 2019.

  1. Su-57

    Su-57 Well-Known Member

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    One thing battle bay can do is to bring players back to Ranked . they can have a hybrid version of Ranked and Casual by reducing number of infamy per battle . at the moment one need to win 4 battles to gain almost 100 infamy . if someone get 4-5 wins in a row he can stop playing , same about losing infamy 3-4 lose in a row one can lose almost 100 infamy . thats a big number for only 4 battles . this is also why player play only few battles in ranked and play more battle per day in casual mode .

    but if they reduce infamy gain lose per battle , for example if infamy per battle gain is +5+6 for a win and -4-5 for a lose . then someone can keep playing and climb infamy over the time , without being frustrated after having a losing strike . I know its not a perfect idea but current system also have flaw .

    if risk and gain is small then player may play ranked as casual i mean i am talking about number of battle per day . this can improve number of battle per day in ranked by average players . because +24 -24 is a big number , one lose can make someone out of master or ace league . so +5+6 and -4-5 will make them play more often and over the time it will make them feel like they are making progress . but risk will be still there its not like taking away the risk of dropping infamy .

    then they can even remove Casual .

    I forgot to add +5 +6 for win and -4 -5 for a lose can also help to make players feel like making progress . when they did best but lose battle then they can get -4 rather then -5
    and when they did best and win they can get +6 rather then -5 . it will show progress over the time .

    Adding a additional point. benefit of small infamy per battles means someone have to be mad to drop infamy on purpose . because then one have to lose lots of battles compared to 10-20 at the moment to drop big number of infamy . so less players gonna drop infamy on purpose .
     
    Last edited: 10 Apr 2019
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  2. Earel

    Earel Active Member

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    Ok, how to rich 5000k? With +-5 infarmy?)
    This game already grind enough...
     
  3. Su-57

    Su-57 Well-Known Member

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    why we need to reach 5000 . and +-5 is just a example not a fixed number . Devs can think about it and other players can also suggested .

    but over the time its possible to reach higher number because then someone will not gonna lose 700-800 infamy in 2-3 days as its happening now .

    and if someone play 100 battles per day in ranked it will be equal to 500 infamy so one cam reach higher number infamy if keep playing more often . because risk will be only 5 infamy player will play more battles .

    and i also mentioned +5+6 for a win amd -4 -5 for lose . so in case someone did best but lose infamy he can get -4 and for win he can get +6 which will lead to gain small margin of infamy over the time and players will feel they are making progress .

    Grinding will reduce because then there will be no need for Casual mode so then only Ranked and Event will left to play .

    its not the perfect idea but still .
     
    Last edited: 9 Apr 2019
  4. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    Look. Infamy gain above 4k is already a hassle. You're suggesting a way that will INCREASE the number of wins needed to climb the ladder, when the anxiety of playing Ranked is already bad.

    +-5? Even if it was +-15, I'd reject that plan. +-15 means it would take 6 battles to climb just 90 infamy. That's 60 BATTLES WON to cross 900 infamy. That is scary! Compared to 24, where it's 40 battles for 960 infamy, that's a difference of more than 20 battles you have to win!

    This will devalue infamy in my honest opinion.
     
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  5. Su-57

    Su-57 Well-Known Member

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    its just a suggestion . some may like it some may not . i have seen some players who suggested for -12+12 infamy .

    but you also see you will not gonna lose 100 infamy in just 4 battles . and extra +1 point infamy for every best battle will make players progress over the time .

    its just an idea , how it can be used for game they can think about it .

    you are at 4000+ infamy so i understand your point .
     
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  6. Su-57

    Su-57 Well-Known Member

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    Its about bringing more players to ranked rather then reaching 5000 infamy .

    right now most of the players can play 60-100 casual or event per day but they are not gonna play this much ranked per day . but this way they may play more battles in ranked per day so it can work . and you guys will have more players for better match making and competition as there are lots of players trying to suggest removing casual rewards or put penalty if someone don't play this much battles in ranked per session ( which is more like forcing players to play ranked rather them attracting them to ranked ) . so in this way they can bring hybrid between casual and ranked .

    but i think players should be clear about what they care about more reaching 4-5k infamy or bringing players back to Ranked and improving gaming experience .
     
  7. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    It doesn't have to be a one-thing-or-the-other situation!
    I don't get it. The entire issue with Ranked at the early and midgame stages in the game is NOT EVEN the fear of loss! It's just that the multipliers for Ranked at the lower levels are so low that Casual is flat-out the better option!

    If the solution just INCREASES the amount of time it takes to climb a league (and climbing leagues is the true objective of Ranked), why will players -- The same players who play Casual because Ranked is not rewarding enough, mind you -- play it anyway?

    I really don't see the logic. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I guess you'll have to explain it to me so that I can understand better.
     
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  8. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    Look, it's not like I don't get you at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you WANT to do is:
    • Reduce the infamy lost on a defeat, but also reduce the infamy gained per victory.
    • Thus, people will find that they lose less infamy on a defeat and will play more Ranked
    • This will thus start improving matchmaking.
    So my question was, what will people do when they realize that they GAIN less infamy as well? Because the way I see it:
    • They will start seeing that infamy gained is super low. Let's say, for example, we reduce it to ±12. When I play for half an hour straight and win everything, I'll see a total infamy gain of 84.
    • Thus, they will think, "Hey! This way, it'll take me AGES to climb from Master (which starts at 1300) to Ace (which starts at 2300)! Why will I play this hard when I can just no-risk it and play Casual all day?"
    • And thus, we'll be back to square 1.
    That's what I think will happen to at least half the early-midgame playerbase. And since you're talking about early and mid game only, I'm not going to say anything about the endgame that I haven't already in my first post in this thread.

    How do you plan to counter this?
     
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  9. super_sonic181

    super_sonic181 Well-Known Member

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    Spot the difference between 5 out of 10 or 50 out of 100.... that's exactly what you are suggesting.. reducing infamy gain and lose won't make the diff.
    Most importantly it's the players who don't play together or use spammy setup or the floaters and unforgetable infamy tankers who intentionally lose infamy.
     
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  10. Su-57

    Su-57 Well-Known Member

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    first thing you are not arrogant .

    I remember before they introduced casual mode so many players used to play custom battles so they can have battles without risking infamy . but they used to play lots of customs for hour . then BB introduced casual mode . now lots of players play more battles in casual then ranked .

    for example one may play few battles and by luck have good teams and win few battles in a row and gain 100-200 infamy then stoped playing after playing 10-15 battles . but i see players play 50-80 casual a day .

    now if there will be less risk of dropping infamy they will play more Ranked . and then there will be no need for casual so they will play 50-80 ranked rather then casual .
    so number of battle per day in ranked will counter infamy someone can gain . 100 battles = to 500 infamy . and because player will gain little more infamy then team when they have best performance or reduced less point when they did best but lost , they will make progress in long run .

    and maybe then they can reduced number of infamy to reach any league to balance it little more .

    but its more about number of battle someone play . i know players play 50-80 battles per day in casual so if you bring them back in Ranked and if they play 50-80 battles per day in ranked its possible for them to make progress and gain infamy .

    game at the moment is more about grinding so BB can use it for Ranked . players can gain infamy in long run if they play more . and if we have more players back to ranked then maybe they will have better match making which can help improve gaming experience by having much better and balanced match making .


    and one player can't reach NM or Ace without grinding . i mean grinding is need to build items and setup to battle against stronger players . so it will give them time to build items and boats . because i remember when i reached 200 infamy then suddenly dropped because others had better items and more hp on boats . then had to build my items before gaining infamy . there was no casual mode for grinding . same happened when i reached 400 infamy . so it was like this at one point need to build items and because it was taking only few battles reaching 200 then 400 then dropping . so small small gain will give players enough battles to grind and gain infamy on the long run .


    and it will also work for higher ranked players because there will be less number of infamy they can dropped .

    AM was at 4200+ infamy few weeks ago then saw him at 3600 . he said in chat he lost more and reached 3100 . this much infamy drop don't take much battles .
     
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  11. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    That's an interesting concept for sure. It will probably smoothen the progression curve and be awesome. But you have to understand that most players don't understand long-term and only see short-term. This could be a good solution, but if players start quitting Ranked because of it right off the bat, we'll have double the size of the problem on our hands.
     
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  12. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    It actually could, if you think about it in terms of the progressions curve. Right now, you can have 4 good games on a fluke and BOOM you're 100 infamy higher, without much progression to show for it. This does of course bring you up faster, but on the downside, it can also mean you didn't truly "earn" your infamy (I hope I'm making sense here?)

    Making infamy ± values lower, according to the OP, could possibly rule out the "dumb luck" part of the infamy ladder, as well as allow players to EARN more tangible rewards per point of infamy.

    I think that it makes a lot of sense, all factors considered. But the first reactions to this, as I said to @Su-57, will be violent.
     
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  13. Su-57

    Su-57 Well-Known Member

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    but at least Devs should think about it . because even if we talk about short term thing . players can get off by losing 500-600 infamy in few battles as its happening at the moment . only some dedicated players are keep playing after dropping to challenger league . in my friend list lots of players not playing anymore ranked .
    and if someone targeting reaching Ace league he will have to grind at least few months to have enough gear score to battle against Ace league players . and because now match making is not good due to less players playing ranked so its even difficult for someone to gain infamy .


    and short term gain also have a big issue . there are some players who sometimes fleet with me have same or even one had more gearscore then me but was doing less dmg every battle then me . both were using shooter . but that player gain suddenly lots of infamy . which was maybe because he got some good team mates and had a good win strike . but now dropped back to 1000 .

    thats a short term fame someone get . but i would rather have a stable long term climb then gaining few hundreds in short term then losing all the progress .


    If i think about reaching NM league i can't just reach there without upgrading items and boats . because to battle against NM players i will need much more stronger weapons and more hp on boat . and we know we can't just get t5 items in few days it will take months or sometimes even more then ear . so its already a kinda long term progress we have to made before reaching Ace or NM .
     
    Last edited: 9 Apr 2019
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  14. Earel

    Earel Active Member

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    TLTR, nop, thx.
    Mb make infarmy +-1?))
     
  15. Su-57

    Su-57 Well-Known Member

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    if you read first part +-1 is mentioned
     
  16. Nicolas

    Nicolas Well-Known Member

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    No, ±5 is a very slow progression and it pushes new players away from ranked.
    I explained my point regarding infamy before. I will do it again:
    "Why is the current infamy system not accurate?
    In my opinion, current infamy system is not accurate because players can easily go up and down in infamy within a short duration. As a 5k player, it will take me less than couple hours to go back to zero infamy. I believe that putting 24 infamy on the risk every battle make ranked mode unappealing. I recommend going down to ~12 instead of 24 for ranked mode. With 24 infamy on the risk players feel like they dropped too much after 4 losses. With ~12 infamy on the risk players won't feel like it's a big loss. In inverse, infamy will feel way more accurate. I recommend scaling infamy gain/loss based on individuals infamy. For example, a 5k player will have ±12 and a 1k infamy will have ±24 per match. Why? To keep the feel of progression in infamy. The more you go up the less infamy you gain/loss. Granular infamy in general wasn't a bad idea, but it can be simplified to do the work that was intended to it in a way all players will accept it. I recommend using the following formula: every ~500 infamy gained, it should go down by 1 like ±(25 - Infamy/500). It can be adjusted to give a more effective system, but in general it's simple and easy to understand by players in inverse to granular infamy which was rejected by the community because it felt complicated and unexplainable. This way a 5k player will not feel. like risking too much infamy because he will have ±15.. and a new player won't feel that it's a long way up because he will have ±25.
    How to make all game modes fairly appealing?
    Keep in mind that players don't risk anything in other game modes like in casual and events. In my opinion, there should be a risk factor in all modes. It's full infamy in ranked mode. Other game modes shouldn't have full infamy because they are significantly more easier, so players will just move from ranked to events because it's way easier to win an event match. Team Elimination game mode in ranked in my opinion is the only strategy based game mode where all ships/loadouts can have fair odds to win (we need balancements). In team deathmatch, it's more about shooters and fixers.. Capture the flag is for speeders.. My recommendation is counting every 5 events battles as one ranked battle. For a player who gain/lose ±25 infamy in ranked, events will give/take ±5 per battle. For a player who gain/lose ±15 infamy in ranked, events will give/take ±3 per battle. In this way, events will become "risky", so ranked will feel "less risky" than now. Again, it's now high risks in ranked with no risks in events. If you add some risks to events, and if you reduce the risks in ranked as mentioned above. Ranked will have normal/acceptable risks. In addition, all players won't leave ranked for easier wins in events because ranked will be ×5 more significant than events. If you want to go up, ranked will be the only option because it will take forever to gain the infamy in events. This will require more balanced matches in events."
     
    Last edited: 9 Apr 2019
  17. benguin8

    benguin8 Well-Known Member

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    @Nicolas 100 times yes. In addition, offering infamy at events in small doses would help players who say excel in CTF but not TDM.
     
  18. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    What I've been suggesting for nearly a year at this point is to leave Infamy +/- the same, but slow the rate of Infamy change. In other words, does it make sense to allow a player to go up/down an entire league in the course of an hour? Did their skill magically change in that time? Of course not.

    What we need is Infamy stability. Stability is what ultimately removes the perception of risk in ranked, which is what the +/- 5 suggestion is trying to do. If you know you can grind out 20 matches, lose most of them not lose a ton of infamy initially, but gain it back tomorrow, then your net Infamy change is zero without the frustrating swings. That lack of drastic short term infamy change also makes the matchmaking more accurate, and eliminates the seal clubbing problem with a better solution than what we have now.

    This is done by using a simple moving average... the average of Infamy +/- over the course of, say, the last 200 matches. It allows you to climb (or drop) at the same rate over time but smooths out the short term wild swings in Infamy.
     
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  19. Ash KOT

    Ash KOT MVP

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    They made the granular infamy way too complicated.

    There is already an algorithm to work out contributions in battle, we see it with the order displayed in the ships on the post battle screen.

    For me I would make it much easier and use this to work out the infamy gain / loss.

    For winning teams:

    Top contributor +24 infamy
    2nd place: +20 infamy
    3rd place: + 16 infamy
    4th / 5th place: +12 infamy

    For losing teams:

    Top contributor: -12 infamy
    2nd place: -16 infamy
    3rd place: -20 infamy
    4th / 5th place: -24 infamy
     
  20. benguin8

    benguin8 Well-Known Member

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    @Ash KOT I like this idea in theory and even suggested something similar, but I think your infamy might be too wide swinging. Did the 1st place really do twice as good as the 4th? Sometimes placement is by a fraction of a percent. Also, this will quickly bring back into light how the star system isn't quite so accurate. First place is not all about damage. My suggestion is to change the +/- to be something smaller, but still give the same effect. Maybe just by increments of 2? +24, +22, +20, +18, +16.
     
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