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  2. Hey please check out our new forum Suggestions and Ideas found in the area "The Bay" - as we love all your ideas and want to collect them in one place, - please use it going forward. :) Thanks already for helping to make Battle Bay an even better experience. Remember: If your idea already exists - simply add your comment or like to an existing one so we avoid duplicates.
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A Brighter Future ....

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by xArrogance, 10 Feb 2019.

  1. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    WARNING --
    There is a reason for each change - even if I forget to explain it. If you do not understand the reason, please ask. Trying to implement this model half-way will not work nearly as well .. and might even make things worse.

    Players may hate this at first glance, but keep reading ...

    0. PURPOSE
    The main goal here is to shift Battle Bay's Monetization Model to a more balanced, more sustainable Monetization Model.

    We'll start with a few structural changes ...


    In Event and Ranked Matches, each match starts with a 7-10 second timer so players can choose the ideal ship and loadout based on the map and team compositions. If no ship is selected, the preset default ship will automatically be loaded in.

    The initial loading screen should show the teams, players, and their favorite ship and loadout (over the previous 50 matches of that type).

    Screen 1 - Ship Selection
    screen 1.jpg

    Screen 2 - Loadout Selection
    -Each ship has its own set of items
    -Notice the use of different skins
    -The player can give each loadout a nickname (not viewable to others)
    Screen 1a.jpg

    How is this different than ranked HCTDM?
    Ranked HCTDM would destroy ranked matches. It is difficult enough to overcome one idiot dying in the first 30 seconds, but it would be near impossible to overcome that idiot dying 3-4 times in increasingly worse ships.

    This is single elimination.

    It should be easier to code for individual, guild quests, and item achievements (i.e., less bugs). And, it solves an issue players have with loadout selections. Rather than resticting your ranked loadout to one that can perform on any map, against any enemy team composition, you can have different loadouts for different maps and different enemies.

    New maps wouldn't have to be designed with every item and ship in mind.

    Ship Loadout Main Screen:

    Inventory screen.jpg

    Each ship has its own inventory. Perks can be equipped or removed at no cost. Removed perks are sent to the "Perks" tab. Item pieces are located in the "Materials" tab (although they could also be relocated to the the "Queue." Each inventory should have 50 item capacity - or however many the player has currently.

    Inventory Queue:
    New items are placed into an "inventory queue." A player then chooses to either assign that item to a ship's inventory (e.g., shooter inventory), or has the option to "scrap all."

    Once an item is assigned to a ship's inventory, that item can be added to any one of that ship's 4 loadouts. However, only one item can be reverted back to the Queue to be reassigned to another ship per day.

    Why individual inventories?
    Financially, Battlebay has to find a way to increase the need for items. Their last idea was HCTDM - awful, awful idea - so, if this is to happen, this should be the way it's done.

    From a quality of life perspective, constantly switching items to the queue and into another inventory is not ideal. From a business perspective, allowing players to switching entire setups to different loadouts would defeat the entire purpose of creating a need for more items.

    Customized sliders could be added (agility-acceleration, speed-hit points, reverse speed-...?) but getting the slider balance down would take some work .. It would be a way of further increasing the importance of different loadouts ..


    A. In order for this suggestion to work, there must be several other changes:
    1. Rarity Changes
    a. REQUIRED: 4 Perk Slots
    Every rarity of item, common to legendary, must have 4 perk slots.

    • Most importantly -- you are creating value for previously worthless items.
    • To ease the transition.
    • Rather than needing 16-24 decent items for HCTDM, players will need about 256 to fill each loadout. Perk slots/bonuses massively affect balance (e.g., the amount of a sniper/grenade crit, the range on a mortar, the cooldown on a pulse or nitro). If the majority of your players cannot fill these loadouts with viable items, you're alienating and pushing them away from the game.

    b. Recommended: Power Scale Adjustments
    After the rarity effectiveness scales are balanced to account for the additional perk slots, I would reduce the difference between each rarity by about 5% temporarily to ease the transition - then gradually move it back.

    2. Perk availability
    a. REQUIRED: Dramatically Increase Perk Availability
    Create a shop tab solely for perks. An item without perks is worthless. Perks are balance, as are the availability of those perks. Offer 8-12 perks every six hours with an increasingly higher rarity based on Infamny league.

    3. Natural Progression
    a. REQUIRED: Accelerated Progression
    The natural item progression has to be accelerated (i.e., players should receive far more of each type and rarity of item under this structure than the current structure).

    4. Game Economy
    a. REQUIRED: Increased Match Rewards.
    Full inventories are the easiest way to lose sales. Players will be leveling far more items and the last thing you want are inventory backlogs, so match rewards should be substanially increased.

    b. REQUIRED: Part Availiability / Cost
    Leveling this amount of items will cost a great deal of parts. This will need to be monitored. Either it should require few parts to level or the number of parts in the shop increased for the price.

    c. REQUIRED: Remove Powercells
    Given the number of items required, players will not be scrapping items. The system will fail with them in the game.

    4. Cosmetics
    a. Recommended: Skins
    To start, I recommend offering different shades of the ship's primary colors at a low cost so players can better differentiate their loadouts. Then, I would experiment with different skins at different price points to start getting a better idea of what your players want and what they're willing to pay for it.

    b. Recommended: Emojis
    Double tap the battle command button for a screen of emojis. Players can use these emojis in the match - viewable to both friendly and unfriendly. I would explore the viability of sales in this area as well.
    Last edited: 10 Feb 2019
  2. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    What are the benefits thus far?
    • Created a greater need for items (by about 2000%).
    • Created value for items that were previously worthless.
    • Balance changes can be made without driving players away.
    • Filled a player need for varied battle loadouts.
    • Added greater competitive balance to the game.

    Because of games like Fortnite, players have options. They can play games where there is no competitive advantage given to those spending money. It's important that you understand the enviornment and the companies you're competing with.

    The f2p and occassional spenders (that are vital to your game's popularity) will mostly focus one ship and one loadout. This will allow them to compete at the game's highest level sooner and on a more level playing field. This will make them happy.

    For the ones generating sales, they will have more ship and loadout options. They will be able to pick the best loadout for that map and that competition. That is absolutely an advantage - but it's a pre-match advantage. Once the match starts, the player's skill will be the largest factor.
  3. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017


    A. F2P Monetization
    Forgive the analogy, but how does Liverpool develop their future talent? Through reserves, academies, professional development leagues ... right? They work them along slowly, at a pace they're comfortable with.

    So, why wouldn't that work with Battlebay?

    We've given value to the previously worthless uncommon items, simply by increasing the number of perk slots, so what's the harm in selling them cheap?

    Offer 20-30 uncommon items for $1 (or a few hundred pearls).

    This may seem outrageous, or far too cheap, but that's the point! If you give them a deal that wonderful, they'll find it hard to refuse. And, you've started their development. They've crossed the asinine stigma of not spending money on a game that gives them thousands of hours of entertainment, and they're much more likely to continue assisting their progress with a bit of spare change in the future.

    B. The Next Step
    To continue the analogy, if you go to a Liverpool game, what does a ticket cost?

    I imagine it depends on where you want to sit. Tickets are tailored to how much you can afford.

    So, let's continue that trend.

    If we offer a package of 10 rares for $5, we might get players that are able to spend a bit more .. How about $9 for 20 rares? Or, $15 for 5 epics, $25 for 10 epics? Maybe a few more steps. And so on.

    Keep in mind - these prices aren't all that different than holiday offers and players now need 20 times the number of items, so you could offer more for less. But, the premise remains .. put more steps in place so players can spend amounts they're comfortable with.

    10,000 players spending $10 a month is more sustainable than 1 player spending $100k.


    A. PayWalls
    I'm not sure why I feel the need to explain this again ... Powercells create a steep, abrupt paywall - and that is the fastest way to lose not only that sale, but also all future sales from that player.

    It may appear to have been a good strategy for your whales initially, but I guarantee powercells are the root cause of so many more lost sales from your other players. Some whales may have blown through the powercell paywall, but I'd venture to say it even cost you sales with smaller whales.

    Anywho, there is no way this system will work with uncommon-rare-epic powercells. And, not nearly as well with legendary powercells.

    B. PressureWall
    Except for the no-life grinders and seal-clubbers taking advantage ...

    Events used to be the best part of the game. The more you played, the more progression you gained. There was a direct correlation. Players loved this aspect of the game.

    Compare that to now, Events are mandatory. If you're not endlessly grinding for a shot at one of the OP perks, you're falling behind competitively. This has made me hate the game, especially when I waste 10+ hours of my life grinding and make zero progress. I end up with worthless uncommon perks and the one legendary perk I couldn't use.

    For others, I know they feel the same. The endless grinding has burned them out. Events are alienating your players (as well as costing you sales).

    Events need to be reverted.

    EVENTS 3.0
    I would offer 10-coin boxes:

    Item Pieces - 40 stock limit - 4 boxes with legendary item pieces, 12 w/ epics, and 24 w/ rares - randomly dropped.
    Event Perks - no stock limit - 10% legendary event perk, 30% epic, 60% rare, 0% uncommon.
    Ship Pieces - no stock limit - 100 pieces 60%, 300 @ 30%, 500 @ 10%.

    Obviously, you can still sell coins.

    I know your inital reaction: "No Way"

    But trust me when I say ... Events in their current format are costing you sales, burning players out and driving them away, and killing your game and your reputation. I'll explain more below.


    A. What do your Whales want?
    The same as everyone, but they can afford it. They want the best items first, they want exclusivity, they want an advantage, they want recognition, and they want fans ..

    But, they're not idiots .. they want value for their investments.

    So, how do you give it to them?

    1. Expand the social aspect of the game.
    Allow players to become "fans" of their favorite players, rather than sending friend requests. Give players a wall to post replays to (that doesn't show the results first), that allows their fans a place to 'like' and comment on.

    Ex: Share to wall - "Check out my new Guardian gameplay!"

    Allow them to post links to youtube or twitch accounts, or notify their fans when they upload a new video.

    2. Cosmetics
    Give their 'page' a garage or shop feel. Allow them to purchase improvements/upgrades, show off their newest skins or loadouts .. or show off lifetime statistics (biggest crit, most damage done, most repair, etc.)


    A. Mystic Items
    Your inital thought: "We have enough levels of items. Our Whales wouldn't like it. Etc."

    There are two issues here:
    1. Revenues are compared quarter-to-quarter. It doesn't matter what players spent six months to two years ago. You need sustainable sales each quarter, rather than large bulk sales followed by a steep decline.

    2. Legendary items have already been severely devalued by season rewards and event perks.

    They are no longer exclusive, nor do they offer near the advantage that legendary event perks offer for less than 1% of the cost.

    a. Exclusivity:
    You can't remove the incentive to climb the ranked leaderboard by removing legendary pieces, so the next step in the evolution is required. Likewise, whales have exclusivity from (much cheaper) new max epic items - since no other player will own them for years at this rate.
    b. Alternative for a Competitive Advantage:
    Event Perks are this alternative now. As long as they are for sale, you will not sell many (if any) legendary items. They simply give too large of an advantage for too little cost.

    B. Creating a new class of rarity is not something you can do often
    And, I full understand why. But, the more rarity classes you have, the easier it is to sell items within each individual player's comfort zone. And, it's too late to rebuild legendary value.

    C. Pricing and Sustainability:
    It costs around $60,000 to get 6 legendary duplicates of all 40 items, but if you want to max out just 6 of those 40 items, the cost increases to over $100k due to powercells - even after you scrapped the other 216 legendary items.

    The issue is that to buy one more max legendary item, or a few more, it will still cost around $60k for the items .. That's a massive PayWall for items they didn't care to prioritize the first time ..

    As no one has every legendary item maxed out, and many are no longer buying legendary items because of this PayWall (and events), so there's clearly an issue with the pricing.

    1. Implement a Raffle-Style System and Limit Available Items
    Imagine the Guild Raffle, but for Mystic Items.

    $1 per spin, 10 spins of whatever prizes you want to toss in, then a bonus spin with a 1/10 chance at a Mystic Item Piece (or free spins, or mystic parts, or perks, etc.). If they get the item piece, it then RNGs the color of the item piece.

    Offer 4 different Mystic Items per month (or whatever time period), so they know what they're working towards.

    This could be done any number of ways, but the slot machine style has been successful for decades for a reason. Most players that have had financial success believe they have better luck than most, so they'd likely be drawn to this style.

    This style would give Mystic Items a more reasonable price, so Whales would be more willing to purchase more of them - considering the price per additional item doesn't jump from $17k to $60k. And, by offering 4 per month, the sales would be more sustainable and predictable (rather than in bulk, up front).

    2. Controlling Progression (or increasing the cost)
    I would suggest doing this subtly with mystic parts, rather than powercells to avoid creating an arbitrary paywall.

    3. Cosmetics
    Give these items a special animation (dark purple tracers or shield walls) and sound effect, so other players can admire them a bit more. There is nothing special animation-wise about legendary items, and that always seemed like a missed opportunity.

    4. Exclusivity
    If you award mystic item pieces as season rewards, do so sparingly and evenly. Give each player in NML 1 and 2 a few item pieces. You want to maintain a level of exclusivity, and you do NOT want a leaderboard full of mystic weapons to avoid the appearance of a p2w leaderboard.


    A. What to do with Legendaries?
    You want legendary items to become the standard for NML, to create a new pricing point and to keep players excited about the items they're building, and to incentive players to speed up that natural progress.

    Drop rates should increase, legendary parts added to shop, remove powercells, and fix the base stat line.
    This should also take care of the early access issues with the old (amazingly wonderful) events.
    Last edited: 10 Feb 2019
  4. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    To recap our goal list:
    • We have a more competitively balanced game.
    • We have removed the insidious (and revenue-killing) paywalls and pressure walls.
    • We have happier players.
    • We have a more balanced and sustainable monetization model.
    • We're building the right reputation to steal unhappy players from Supercell.
    • We have focused our revenue stream into progression/item collections so we can better make adjustments and monitor it.
    • We are giving our players what they want (without devaluing our highest rarity of items).
    • We have created value in previously worthless items.
    • We are developing our Reserves into productive little customers.
    • We have more time for bug-fixes, map creation, and the creative aspects.

    oh ... and Battlebay has a future ;)

    HAPPY SITHSHA Well-Known Member

    24 Feb 2018
    A Place that u could never imagine :P
    @xArrogance ,this is for all of your posts above;)
    Well said dude ;). I hope that any of the developers or @The Grim Repair would read this thread :)
  6. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

    11 Jun 2017
    Classified top secret ;-)
    *Hands medal*
    @xArrogance :
    tenor (1).gif
    You da man!

    All great suggestions, 100% agree to all of them. Sending this thread over!
  7. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

    17 Jun 2017
    Excellent suggestions... perhaps the best I've seen in this forum to date. Doing this would actually give us reason to believe in the game's longevity. Nothing less would do.
  8. Djradnad

    Djradnad Well-Known Member

    11 May 2017
    I really liked your “business side issues” thread. But I do not see this as a good solution. After I read your other thread I was really excited to read this one, and I was also excited because i saw it mentioned as a great read, but I fail to agree, and I do so wholeheartedly.

    You probably want to know why, and simply put, every aspect aside from the colorful cosmetics seem like hideous changes. Let’s say the game was made this way and everything was cheap, regardless of having the option of 4x8 setups.. I would likely just build one setup at a phenomenally low price. In addition,
    I would not buy cosmetics
    Players with legendaries would be furious
    I don’t feel that legendary items are unvaluable as it is, but I do think legendary perks have flooded the economy.
    I don’t like your idea of inventories for each material. I personally have 120spaces, so even if I have 120 in each tab I would never need that many.
    I fail to see any positives to this tbh, and in addition it seems overly complicated to move items around.
    4perks any rarity? This makes no sense to me, you would lose the excitement of unlocking a 4th perk at epic t4. Basically one of the greatest feelings in the game.

    Personally, I think a fix to the leggy perks would be to knock Everyone’s event perks down a rarity.. all your legendaries get kicked to epic, and I guess they would have to add common perks to knock down the uncommons. Then reintroduce legendary perks available by combining 2 epics of the same exact event perk.. make event perks easier to get by being able to combine 2 epic perks and get the stats from each. Obviously the major downside would be the playerbase feeling like they are getting screwed over when they no longer have their shiny leggy perks, but it would happen across the board to every player so it wouldn’t be unfair, just sad to lose the shiny.
    NeptuneGaming likes this.
  9. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

    25 Oct 2017
    I appreciate the time and energy you've put into both of these threads. I honestly did not like the other thread at all. The format is disjunctive and many of the examples (such as purchasing powercells) are misleading. Almost nobody purchases powercells directly. It also leaves out any freebies through guild quests, individual quest, achievements, etc.

    Overall, I agree with your goal. Move the spending away from lots of spending from few players and towards smaller spending from many players. I've always thought that was the best monetization method for any game and I've stated it in the past on this forum. I think some of your suggestions here are great. Some of them have been stated before.

    I love the idea of loadouts. This has been suggested many times. I'd like to see loadouts be purchasable with pearls though. So that it brings in some spending.

    I like the idea of separating inventory into parts, pieces, perks, and items. I think that would help many newer players. Any free inventory would be nice as well.

    I do not like the inventory queue. I think that adds unnecessary complexity to the game.

    I don't want to add perks to Rares, Uncommons, or Commons at their current tiers. However, if you added more tiers ONLY FOR LOWER RARITY ITEMS and increased the number of perks per tier, that could be extremely successful. For example.... Commons get 1 perk at Tier 3. I'd give them a 2nd perk at Tier 6, 3rd at Tier 9, and 4th at Tier 12. Uncommons get perks at T2 and T4. Give 3rd at T6 and 4th at T8. Rares get perks at T1, T2, and T3. I'd give the 4th at T6. Allowing lower rarity items go to higher tiers than higher rarity items means that the power gap is lessened, but you still have to invest a significant amount in order to reduce the power gap.
    I think perk availability is fine. Most perks are gotten basically for free from the guild rewards. Most players that play even a decent amount have an inventory full of unused perks.

    I think progression has been greatly expedited from the last update. I don't think changing it any further is necessary at this point.

    And of course I like the idea for cosmetics. This has been suggested many times. Even if we don't change anything about the game at all, but just add cosmetics, that would be welcome. You could possibly give some of the cosmetics effects. Nothing game-breaking, but it could give your ship more individuality.

    Again, overall great post. There's a lot that's been stated and suggested before. I agree with a good bit of it, although there's some I don't agree with. I can't guarantee that the devs will read or utilize any of your suggestions, but it can't hurt to make good suggestions and try to help the game.
    Last edited: 11 Feb 2019
  10. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    It's important to keep personal motivations in mind with these types of things ..

    My personal motivation:
    I have no issue climbing the leaderboard. I have zero issue with an inventory backlog saving me hundreds I would have otherwise spent. I have enough items to do well in HCTDM. I could purchase event perks if I wanted to, but choose not to in principle. I don't want my ranking tainted by some p2w match advantage - more than it already is anyways.

    My main motivation here is to help Rovio follow in the footsteps of industry leaders - like Epic Games (FortNite) - and to be successful by giving players the type of game they want. A fair and competitively balanced game. (Obviously, cosmetic-only sales wouldn't work in BB now, but it should be the goal they're working towards).

    Those that would hate these changes:
    The players that were lucky enough to make it to NML2 are just fine and dandy with how things are. The p2w perks probably even give those players an excuse for why they're not on the top of the leaderboard. They can mess around in event and casual matches, and never have to play another ranked game (while still collecting season rewards) .. but those players aren't exactly generating any meaningful revenue. Clearly, they hate any idea that threatens to disturb their cozy little existance.

    Those that would love it:
    The players that play games to win, but would rather lose a fair game than win a rigged (or p2w) game. They want competition. They want to be tested. They want a game of skill. And, most of these players will spend money on a game that gives them this much entertainment - if you figure out their price range.

    I'll clarify a few things:

    Why is it vital for the game to generate the majority of its revenue through the purchase of progression (items), cosmetic items, and ad-revenue (rather than competitive advantages)?
    • Players have come to expect a fair game.
    Most players do not enjoy competing in games where the winner is determined by who is willing to spend the most. And, there are an increasing number of games willing to offer that type of experience.

    Pro tip: The companies that can adapt to a changing industry are far more likely to succeed; those that cannot fail.

    What makes me think they're struggling?
    • Because the original monetization model was great.
    It was balanced and competitive. Legendary items were priced well beyond most players, and the advantage offered to those that could afford them was reasonable. They obviously know the right way to do things ..

    But, that all changed when sales took a nosedive. And it'll only get worse ...

    What happens when players have all bought all the legendary perks they want?
    • They'll start offering triple-bonus perks.
    Imagine the offer of mega-Legendary event perks - range, crit chance, and damage all rolled up in one perk for your grenades ... for the low, low price of $99.99.

    What happens when selling event perks isn't enough?
    • They'll implement Ranked HCTDM ..
    If players complain about having one floater in single-elimination, how well are they going to react to a floater that dies 4-5 times to a crafty speeder camping their spawn? How well are they going to react to losing matches where they didn't die once?

    So, yeah .. I think solving the sales issues might be a bit important.
    Last edited: 12 Feb 2019
  11. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    People do that now .. I built my initial NML setup with $200 in holiday specials. It worked out to about $5 per epic - if memory serves. And f2p players would continue to focus one ship -- which would allow newer players to compete at higher levels sooner.

    But, imagine they stopped making maps so each ship and item had a chance to be used well --Suppose Wayward Pains (halloween map) had a closed roof; suppose there were more maps like Midfight Movies with little waves and cover.

    What setup would you use that's good on every map and against every enemy team composition? There's not one.

    That's the one thing I would spend money on at this point - items for different loadouts ...

    If I'm facing a speeder team vs 2 fixers/3 spammy shooters, I want a different loadout. If I'm playing Damage Depot vs Sub Zero, I want a different loadout. If I'm facing Grand Paladin and his Guardian, I'm going in with 3 big torps and 2 one-slot torps .. because I'm mean like that. :D

    And that's the point here -- What are players willing to pay for that doesn't destroy the competitive balance of the game? ... unless you're looking forward to triple-bonus event perks.

    1) As I said, players that purchased legendary items can't expect that advantage to last forever. Games need to make money every quarter. It doesn't matter what players spent a year ago .. I've also suggested a better model for selling Mythic items - one that should stabilize sales for a few years to come.

    2) The idea is that you wouldn't be moving items around .. You build individual load-outs.

    3) Perks are balance .. Uncommons and rares are unusable in competitive matches because of their limited slots .. They already do 20% less damage than the rarity above them - and people will always want to upgrade them - so there was never really a point in limiting uncommon and rare perk slots. This way they have value. You can wow f2p players with cheap deals without creating an unfair advantage.

    Is that "excitement of unlocking a 4th perk at epic t4" worth more than competitive balance? Is it better to have rares and uncommons remain little more than a waste of time? Do you enjoy playing a game of who's bank account is bigger ...?

    4) Legendary items aren't unvaluable ...

    So ... would you rather spend $50-60,000 on a legendary firebomb that does 400 more total damage than a max epic (both with epic perks)? Or, would you rather spend $5-600 on legendary perks that gives your epic firebomb 3.65 seconds less of a cooldown, 3 tiles more range, 13% faster projectile speed (making it much easier to hit with), and more DPS? I know where the smart money is.

    5) For the fix on legendary perks, that's their main revenue source right now .. They're not simply going to "fix" it without having a better monetization plan to put in place.
  12. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    I'm a bit lost here ... That was my point -- almost no one purchases powercells directly.

    With the freebie powercells, I slowly build the items in my inventory backlog. However, I easily replace those empty inventory slots with the items I gain through the natural progression. Thus, I have zero incentive to purchase more items.

    I could buy epic containers and scrap every epic item, but the cost of 100 epic powercells would be around $1400. This is the reason I used the cheaper epic powercell daily offer in my example - about $114 per 100 cells. I chose "100" powercells as the number because that is a requirement for maxing one epic item and I had to pick a number for comparison's sake. The same thing applies if you want to build out a few epics and are sitting with 22 powercells.

    Anywho, in the context of a more effecient Monetization Model, I thought it relevant to point out areas of the game where over-monetization is costing sales. This one PayWall has cost them several hundreds in item sales from me alone. Assuming that I am not alone, this might be an area to be addressed.

    I don't read much of the forums or discord anymore, but I don't believe I ever stated that no one in the history of the world had ever imagined such brilliant ideas .. Quite the contrary, I think most of these ideas are common sense - and I'm not at all surprised that others have had similar thoughts.

    This is a prime example of over-monetization ..

    Why do you think the game is free? Perhaps so more people download the game and they have a larger potential customer base to draw revenue from .. Of course, they could have sold the game for $4.99 and brought in "some spending" but they would have lost 95% of their potential customers from the start.

    If the goal is to sell skins and more items, then why create a barrier to that goal with an arbitrary paywall? Especially when Zues has said that inventory expansions were not a significant source of revenue - and this would be similarly insignificant.

    I'll give you an example of unnecessary complexity in a moment, but it seems that increasing the need for items is very necessary - if they're struggling with sales.

    Situation 1: As it is now ..
    • I can use the same pool of 12 max items to equip and play most ships competitively (with a L1 leg item or two to supplement).
    Situation 2: Ranked HCTDM ..
    • Implementing this would take 16-24 items to equip and play 2-3 ships competitively.
    • Short-term band-aid in exchange for some very angry players.
    Situation 3: Ship loadouts with a shared inventory ..
    • Same as situation 1 -- ~12 items needed total to run almost any ship.
    • I would be happy with this situation .. but it doesn't open inventory space beyond using the new loadouts as storage.
    • Players will still be endlessly unequipping items from one ship and equipping them to another.
    • However, they would generate sales from skins and some players would purchase items for different loadouts.
    • Would it be enough to prevent ranked HCTDM? Maybe .. They could easily test this version first - or use it as a transition.

    Situation 4: Ship loadouts with individual inventories ..
    • 8 per ship minimum - 256 to fill each loadout.
    • Players have space to buy new items.
    • They have reason to go through the natural item progression for each ship (uncommons to rares to epics), or the option to increase that progression speed with item purchases.
    • And, the option to purchase skins.

    I went with the more drastic of two options, because this (with the "required" notes above) would generate more revenue immediately, be a better long-term solution, and be a big quality of life improvement over constantly switching items from ship to ship (once players had items to equip each ship). But, either 3 or 4 would be help in my opinion.

    They could do that .. and figure out what balance is necessary to avoid discouraging players from spending to reach the next level of rarity .. and increase the amount of parts or decrease the amount of parts it takes to upgrade items (because, oddly enough, it takes days of shop watching to do each level of T5 uncommons). And give players inventory space to save the 12-18 duplicates they would need for each uncommon .. it would certainly add a layer of complexity to the game.

    Or .. they could just increase the perk slots and make some minor adjustments to the power curve.

    Obviously, those requirements were in the context of a change towards individual inventories and multiple ship loadouts .. they're fine for how things are now. (Well, other than event perks).
    Last edited: 12 Feb 2019
  13. Djradnad

    Djradnad Well-Known Member

    11 May 2017
    5 red -shooter
    3 yellow- speeder/enfo
    3green - fixer
    5blue - defender
    16 total

    I’ll be paraphrasing from now on cause it took forever to delete the rest of that quote on my phone..

    You say that you want a competitive/fair game, but you somehow think that the option to have multiple load outs for each map is the answer. This baffles me, because only a whale would be able to afford such a thing and would be stomping players that supposedly rely on rng to find them the proper maps. I don’t personally feel that maps hold such a value over setups, except for small minority of combinations. You yourself have only built a small arsenal and have made it to the top so your should know this first hand.

    You also act as tho legendaries do not hold worth simply because a t5epic is better, but that is because you are valuing the epics without valuing the epic PCs it takes to build a larger arsenal.

    Lastly, you asked if the feeling you get when unlocking t4e 4th perk is really that great. And yes I believe it is. There are plenty of popular games with no gameplay at all other than unlocking things (for instance how FarmVille was popular) you simply unlock things and the feeling of getting it keeps people going forward to unlock the next thing for that satisfication.

    There may be more rebuddles I could pull out, but these stand out the most to me.
  14. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    I forgot about the fixer lol .. I can't play that one competitively. But I don't think people need a full max level loadout to compete .. I supplement a L1 legendary in there when needed.

    And, yes .. a pre-match advantage in single elimination still makes for a competitive match - far, far more than HCTDM or giving players event perks.

    I'm not sure where you're going with powercells .. I was saying that if you're a whale and want an advantage most players can't afford, event perks are a far cheaper alternative. They typically have several thousand epic cells to spare.

    As far as unlocking stuff goes, I'm lost again .. but it seems like we just have different opinions about what's important in a game.

    You like your shiny T4 perks. I prefer balance and fairness. And it's perfectly fine to enjoy a game for different reasons.

    I'm curious though.. how much did you spend on the game originally and how much do you spend now?
  15. Djradnad

    Djradnad Well-Known Member

    11 May 2017
    You are right I completely read over some part too quickly, and thought you were comparing to epics not to perks. I am completely in agreement that event perks are OP and such.

    Spent 40$ total. (Also watched an unhealthy amount of ads, but I made a habit of not watching them a few months ago now)
  16. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

    17 Jun 2017
    I've been pondering this specifically based on how Infamy is currently treated in this game with overly expanded matchmaking criteria that approaches RNG. As a result I've actually suggested to get rid of Infamy entirely because it's that broken. That would leave us with casual and event matches, and effectively Battle Bay becomes an item farming game. xArrogance's suggestion is another step in that direction.

    So at this point let's call a spade is a spade... Battle Bay is straying more towards Farmville and Pokemon... always new boats and items to unlock and build, while getting further and further from competitive play, and further from being an eSport. As such, everyone needs to ask themselves, what advantage does spending money buy you in this game at this point with or without xArrogance's suggestions? I'm struggling to find an answer.
  17. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    I read through the app store reviews while waiting on the game to download ..

    Most of the recent reviews were 1-2 stars .. players appear to have issues with matchmaking and/or how everything is now a p2w - money grab.

    I certainly understand the 2nd complaint. But the issue with matchmaking is a tough one ...

    It works well enough for NML .. there should be a few small tweaks, but it's not bad.

    The MM issues are more so in the 1 - 3.5k range:

    lol ... I got four paragraphs into what's causing those issues and how they could fix them ... but what's the point o_O

    Anywho, if you can find a way to get up to NML .. it gets much better.
  18. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

    17 Jun 2017
    Well the reality is matchmaking is never an issue if you are the player with highest level gear in the match, coupled with useful teammates. For me @2500 it seems to be getting but worse.

    I played a half dozen ranked matches yesterday, I saw representatives from Challenger, Master, and Ace, I saw as high as 1400 Infamy spread (1400-3700) in one match where no player was in the tanking zone, a player at 800 Infamy, one at 100 Infamy who floated on us, another who somehow dealt less damage than a single one of its T5E weapons, and in the same match two other teammates suicided into the middle of all 5 enemies, killing not a one of them, as is usual with players like that. I was just left shaking my head in disgust because I'm the one being penalized for others in the infamy tanking zone, or teammates with a complete lack of game integrity. As I see it there's apparently a reason for them being that low in Infamy... so continuing to throw them into a 2000-3000 match is doing a disservice to me, and the integrity of Battle Bay as a whole. I would toss Infamy and use GS matchmaking (coupled with Captain Level) at this point in the game as Infamy is systemically broken.

    Everything else is secondary to the severe matchmaking issues in this game. Sorry for going off topic, as I don't want to diminish the value of this thread.
  19. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

    9 Dec 2017
    Going off-topic ..
    Can't swim was right about my posts being unclear.
    I wrote the posts 6 different times, in 6 different tones, after being triggered by each new OP item or OP p2w perk that was introduced .. but with all the different versions and everything I cut out to make the posts fit within the 10k character limits, I lost track of what was in there and what wasn't. And my main points were lost in there - or not explained well.

    If I had any indication they were listening, I'd rewrite them. But I don't see that as very likely.

    Anyways -- this isn't a critique or defense of MM but I'll give you some tips @envylife .. or for anyone else interested.

    Infamy in BB is like most games -- It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    In the early days, players that a large item level advantage over others could easily move up the ladder.

    Now, with the natural progression that's taken place over the past few years, it's difficult to get a significant enough item level advantage (without buying event perks) to move up quickly.

    And, once you're settled in at a particular infamy range, it's fairly easy to stay at that range (because of hidden player ratings). Something has to change for you to move up or down.

    Side note: Hidden Player Ratings
    Player Ratings do most of the match balance work .. In the simplest of terms, you get a +1 rating for a win and a -1 for a loss.

    The higher your rating, the lower your teammates are rated and/or the higher your opponents are rated - regardless of infamy. Matching teams based on this keeps most players within about 1/2 of one percent of a 50% win rate.

    So, it typically takes thousands of matches to see if a change is making a difference.

    Without this -- if they used infamy alone -- you would have far more unbalanced matches with players that are doing worse than their infamy suggests. Losing streaks would go on for much, much longer. And the system wouldn't be able to account for things like infamy tankers or players struggling with balance changes.

    People will always complain about matchmaking - and not that there isn't room for improvement - but it's better to keep players in the same general infamy range and slowly increasing or decreasing that range rather than allowing massive 3k infamy swings. That would lead to more rage-quitting.

    Because of player ratings, it usually takes thousands of matches for you to see true infamy changes.

    The difference between me (at 5k) and a 2600 infamy player is ~100 wins. In the context of 20,000 matches, that's a .005% higher win rate.

    Players get frustrated with small samples (e.g., losing 28 out of 30 matches) or with bad teammates. Most everyone experiences bad streaks. It's not something to be concerned with unless you're struggling to play well .. (If you're struggling with balance changes - stop playing ranked until you can compete at your old level).

    And everyone deals with players that disconnect or float, or even those that intentionally throw matches.

    But, if you're always a solid player, and there is 1 or 2 bad players of the 9 in your match, statistically they're more likely to be on the other team: 44.4% vs 55.6%. (Stole that tidbit from a developer, but it is true) .. so it's not as large of an issue as it seems. It's just easier to notice when you're affected.

    How do you get that .005% higher win rate?

    1) Understanding the numbers:
    Constantly fleeting with a good player will further reduce your chances of having a bad player on your team: 37.5% vs 62.5% on the other team.

    Yes .. the more you win, the worse your teammates get.. but, that's why it takes thousands of matches to see the difference.

    Winning one more match per hundred will get you closer to my win rate - and slowly boost your infamy.

    What happens when you try to go solo?
    Your match rating is elevated and you're probably going to undo all that work you put in while fleeting - assuming the fleet put you on a win streak.

    2) Understanding MM shortcomings:
    Fleeting with a good fixer will give you an advantage over teams without a good fixer.

    It appears that they have no way of telling the difference between a good fixer and a bad one, so they stopped trying -- as far as I know, they do not factor ship type into team-matching at all any more.

    That could easily be the difference of the one match in a hundred that you need.

    3) Understanding the role of skill and item level: They are prerequisites. You must have the requisite amount of skill and a requisite item level to reach a particular rankings.

    The item level standard for NML is a mostly max epic loadout - with exceptions for the exceptionally skilled players, certain ships, and OP new items.

    But, item level is not a guarantee of ranking. You still have to take advantage of #1 and #2 to move up. (Or .. simply buy a bunch of p2w perks).

    The only legendary items I use are less powerful than the max epic versions - and the ones that I couldn't build epics in due to a powercell shortage .. so my fleetmates and I are typically either at the same item level as the unfriends or at a disadvantage (to their legendary items and p2w perks).

    As far as skill goes -- positioning, knowing what shots to take and when, and accuracy are obviously important .. I think the ability to put pressure/damage on enemies while surviving until the end of the match is the best skill to learn.

    Otherwise, players can better get away with sloppy tactics in lower leagues, but adjustments are easy enough to make ..

    The thing that frustrates players is they see their infamy at half the level of others but they know they're similarly skilled. Or, they get frustrated with a stagnating ranking ... Understandably.

    But, everyone is getting the same progression unless they're buying better items or p2w perks .. so they're not getting better in relation to other players.

    And a system that allows fleets and paid advantages will never have a perfect skill-to-infamy relationship.. that is why it's important to understand how the system works.

    4) Understanding ship limitations:

    Shooters and Interceptors:
    Everything can hurt a shooter.

    Speeders are playing battleship (attacking anywhere on the map within 30 seconds) while you're playing checkers (one slow move at a time) .. Two speeders can sink you in one fly-by; One if you're hurt. If you get slightly out of position, there is no fast escape option (no nitro), so you're sunk. You're 500 times more susceptible to mortars, flares, FBs, grenades, frost, etc. No energy shield. No nitro. No duct tape.

    So, moving up rankings on is going to require an advantage .. and best thing to do is fleet with a good fixer. It's basically a requirement.

    Interceptors are similar .. but require stronger items.

    A skilled fixer can probably still reach NML with mostly rare items .. and it's probably the easier ship to increase infamy with.

    This is the self-fulfilling prophecy part -- I've carried fixers up several hundred (or a thousand) infamy higher than they had ever been. Other good players want to fleet with them and they push even higher .. of course, they will go through several win-loss-win-loss stages, but that higher infamy becomes their normal range with enough matches .. and nothing else changed but their fleetmates.

    Otherwise, the issue with most fixers is they don't understand their support role. They have 3 fixing items and they should be using them as soon as the cooldown is up. Between hitting their nitro/OB and focusing on the best position for cover and pulses, they shouldn't have time to fire a weapon. And they should be able to do it without duct tape.

    A flare and blast for speeder defense is a decent option in an emergency. And dropping a mine or launching the occasional FB is fine .. but fixers get way too caught up in trying to be a damage dealer. Or, they launch themselves into bad positions to save the idiot that went off on his own. Either way, they're missing out on thousands of HPs worth of repairing .. and that costs them matches.

    Maybe the repair plasma will give them a different role .. another mortar spamming class (yay! :rolleyes:) .. we'll see.

    Fixers spamming plasma on the Damage Depot capture point with a guardian blocking incoming shots should be fun -- it's a good thing they nerfed mine damage, huh ...

    Other ships:
    I'll occasionally play them in ranked but I don't pretend to be an expert on them.
    Last edited: 14 Feb 2019
  20. Agile Vanguard

    Agile Vanguard Well-Known Member

    8 Apr 2018
    Random Battle Bay player and tuber.
    In a land far far away...
    @xArrogance you need to make a whole library of these. These are so thoughtful.

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