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The Need To Feel We’re Getting Better

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by YerJokinArnYer, 15 Aug 2018.

  1. YerJokinArnYer

    YerJokinArnYer MVP

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    Having read some other posts on the forum, one thing that struck me was the need to feel as though we’re making progress. Players are becoming frustrated with a seemingly lack of progress, which can become a reason for quitting the game.

    I think it’s important at this point to define two terms. Absolute progress is a measure that ignores all other players. (Examples of absolute measures of height would be to say that I am x cm tall). Relative progress is a measure of you compared to others (such as, I am taller than y% of the population of Britain)

    The primary progress indicator that players use is infamy. But as we’re aware, infamy is a measure of our progress/strength relative to all other players at that particular point in time. We know that with an established player base there is a ‘power creep’, many players are getting stronger at the same rate. Therefore even though we improve (by completing training, improving gear, or by our own skills) that is often not reflected in infamy (or perhaps not to the level that we expect. Therefore, whilst infamy is a fantastic matchmaking tool which measures our relative skill, training, gear etc, it isn’t great for measuring absolute progress (ie progress which isn’t affected by other players) .

    There are other progress measures in the game:
    Captain level - which is a quite a simple, absolute measure showing our progress in reaching captain level 50 (and completing crew member training). It’s easily understood but it’s limitation is that it is just a measure of the degree of training completion. It takes no account of our gear or skill. It is very visible though, being shown next to player names for all players in our league, and for the top 50 in NML.
    Gear Score - an absolute measure of how good our weapons and various items are. This is still a system under review with various gear and perks still not perceived as equivalent to their given gear score (turbo for example). This system takes no account of our training or skill. It is only visible by clicking on a particular player to see their profil.
    Power Score - power score is the matchmaking tool for events. It is an absolute measure of training and gear score (though suffers due to the imperfections in the current gear scores). This score is not visible to players at all at the moment (you can’t even see your own) as it is perceived that this will lead to abuse of the system. It takes no account of skill - but is used in events on the basis that it will reward skill, good tactics and people who can quickly adapt to the rules of that event.

    Of those measures, power score is probably the measure which would most allow players to feel that sense of progress. In a perfect world (where all bugs are ironed out of the system) they could quickly and easily see the absolute strength of their boat and how it compares to rivals and the top players.

    One thing that should help players feel as though they’re making progress are achievements. Many other games make use of them to reward progress. Battle Bay does have achievements, but I don’t feel that they’re structured in a way to reward/recognise progress, but rather specific events that happen as a bi-product of you playing. Eg sink two ships with one torp, do x amount of healing in one game. Just because you do them in one game, doesn’t mean you are capable of repeating the feat consistently - which is what measuring progress should be about. (Although it would be nice if you automatically gained a link to the battle in which you completed the each of the current achievements so you could watch them again). Perhaps an achievement like ‘average 10,000 damage in per win’ (measured over last 100 wins) is more like the type of achievement I think we should be having.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts. It would be good to hear other people’s thoughts on progress, especially if they have any other ideas for progress measures I’ve not mentioned. (I hope you don’t find it too long to read :))
     
  2. The Grim Repair

    The Grim Repair Community Manager

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    Sense of progression is definitely very important in a game you keep playing to improve and compare against others.

    What kind of progress do you guys feel is helping you in the game understand you are getting better and which kind of sense of progression are you currently missing?

    Good post @YerJokinArnYer
     
  3. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe MVP

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    We could have achievements for taking down x ships of y class. As an assassin, it would help people like me gauge our success against specific targets, thus giving us both a sense of achievement as well as an idea of which ship we are good at countering.
     
  4. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    Yea I agree with this. @ViscountSniffit just posted something the other day about how his gear has gotten exponentially better over the last 6 months, but his infamy has only increased by single digits. This is all due to the power creep that has been amplified by the weapon achievements and event rewards. I could legitimately get a new legendary every weekend by grinding the events.

    My response was that the only way to gain infamy is to:
    1. Make your ship/items stronger faster than everyone else. This means hard grinding of events or just spending more money.
    2. Improve your skill quicker than everyone else. This one is very difficult because the large majority of players have basically a set skill-set and don't work to improve things. If you are willing to put in the time and concentration, significant gains can be made by honing your craft.

    A lot of this can be traced by to the NML reset. If you didn't remove the finite resource of infamy from the game, then players would see gradual progress over time. Removal of the NML reset would have to be accompanied with a rework of the leagues, especially at the top.
     
  5. Ash KOT

    Ash KOT MVP

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    This is exactly me.

    My level, gear and training are all improving constantly, I never stop training and upgrading.
    However with upgrading to a MK6 and getting the dreaded infamy "drop" I cannot get back to my previous highest infamy and it makes me feel like I am not progressing at all, or going backwards.

    I have decided to disregard infamy for the short term, and just focus on my weapons and training.
    I will get stronger, and in time with more experience and better gear my infamy will climb when it it ready to.

    I also think having a strong guild is important to progress, so today I will be moving to a more competitive guild, that clears 4 boards instead of 2.
    Surrounding yourself with hungry players pushing will make you push also, same as playing in a half full guild where half of the members dont even push just encourages everyone else to slack off.

    So I am hoping with all the extra tokens and parts / perks from the raffle I can speed up my progression and really ramp up my strength as a player much faster!
     
  6. SeaNavy

    SeaNavy Well-Known Member

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    Lol, for me it's the other way around. My items aren't progressing very fast, but my infamy is. Anyone else?
     
    Last edited: 15 Aug 2018
  7. SupremeCalamitas

    SupremeCalamitas Well-Known Member

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    I really need my leggy ex cannon ... 10 million damage though.. I'm at 3 million ( been using ex for a VERY long time. Before and elfter nerf. I don't notice the nerf, really.), but that's still 7 million..

    Bring back the old capture the flag, I need to to farm damage :p
     
    PallabKumarS likes this.
  8. BattleRascal

    BattleRascal Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a great way to see ones progress in relationship to how much you are spending/grinding/upgrading. Improvements to gear scores are still needed.

    The other idea that I have seen posted on this forum multiple times is to give us more "STATS". I personally love stats.
    One of the best things would be to have a Game Wide Leaderboard of stats.(kinds like old school Video Games where your high score initials would stay on the list for years).
    The more stats the better.
    Have TOP 50 for:
    Top season infamy ever acheived
    Highest Infamy achieved for each ship type
    Highest infamy achieved for each MK level of ship(using MK of highest upgraded ship, this would allow for the top MK2 and Mk3 in the game to be recognized)
    Most damage per game (per MK level ship)(per ship type)
    Most healing per game(per MK level ship )

    I could take an hour and come up with hundreds of other ideas.

    If the Dev's were seriously considering this idea, I would hope they would make a community post and allow the players to suggest ideas for stats to be added to the game.

    I think seeing these leaderboards at all level of infamy and MK ships would add a sense of seeing progress, even though your infamy might not be increasing. At least you can work towards getting your name on these leaderboards.
     
  9. NoTtIaN

    NoTtIaN Well-Known Member

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    ok i havent even read this, but. heres an idea from another game:

    once you reach lv 40, maybe 50, you get an option to 'reset'

    youll lose everything - maybe not pearls - and you get a super cool skin, like PRO I, PRO II, and so on.
    yes thats right, even all the hard earned items, for a skin! worth it!

    also, your name will have a [PRO I] (or more) added with your name tag, so people wont ignore noobs.

    along with this idea, there should be skins!

    skins are achiement earned, and league + captain earned, quest earned (limited), bought etc.
    they add cool looks to your skin, making your fixer look like a defender - no one will challenge you! \

    i realized i just 'leeched' onto a populr thread for views :rolleyes:

    but i think its a good idea!
     
  10. SupremeCalamitas

    SupremeCalamitas Well-Known Member

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    Like in C.A.T.S? You play that game too?

    Deleted because needed storage... R.I.P War Cat..
     
  11. NoTtIaN

    NoTtIaN Well-Known Member

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    i wrote it, its above me here: @The Grim Repair
     
  12. NoTtIaN

    NoTtIaN Well-Known Member

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    in that game, you progressed WAY too quick, it didnt seem like progress was 'rewarding; enough.. meaning, that you had to spend time earning the hard-earned items - plus, oncec i got prestige, the matches wnt terrible :(

    i had space, its just the game got repetitve, almost like (codename - War Robots);)
     
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  13. Scourge Argaen

    Scourge Argaen Well-Known Member

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    As a casual player, what's hurting my progression is not having the resources to be able to progress my crew training and gear upgrades simultaneously. It's a bit like being stuck between a rock and a hard place as I struggle to do both, especially further down the talent tree.

    Would there be consideration to revise the resource requirements for this kind of progression? What I'm referring to in particular is:
    • Reduction in sugar cost for captain training.
    • Reduction in parts / cell cost for item upgrades.
    • Reduction in price for parts.
    A reduction of 10% would be a nice boon and I don't think that's too much of a reduction.
     
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  14. YerJokinArnYer

    YerJokinArnYer MVP

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    Currently on battle results screen, each players ship mk is shown.

    Ideally I would say that another progress measure (gear score/power score or something better) should be shown instead . This would allow players to more easily see their progression by looking back at the battle logs.
     
    PallabKumarS likes this.
  15. envylife

    envylife Well-Known Member

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    Upgrade Boat --> Lower Infamy = Anti-progress

    Well stated.

    If we want to feel like we are progressing in the game, we don't want to see Infamy drop on an *upgrade* or Infamy drop over time, which in BB terms is hours. I haven't yet seen a justification as to why we still have the entirety of NML reset to 4000 every two weeks. I haven't yet seen a justification for changing infamy every single match. Every other competitive league I'm familiar with uses a moving average of the past X number of matches to avoid this issue, which will lessen the feeling of unnecessary whipsaw, frequently resulting in having OP players in your matches... players that were hundreds or thousands of Infamy higher just hours ago.
     
  16. Djradnad

    Djradnad Well-Known Member

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    Achievements are definitely fun, I wouldn’t mind some for collecting large quantities of each medal.
     
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  17. Brian Olinger

    Brian Olinger New Member

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    Well spoken. In each category of even why not have a choice how the Captian wants to be placed? E.g. would you like to join captains your cpt. Lvl, gear score or play style if we had an option to label ourselves with a play style. Who knows it could happen.
     
    PastelPiku likes this.
  18. Nicolas

    Nicolas Well-Known Member

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    Introducing Level quests:

    When we upgrade the capitain level, we get three bonus daily quests. These quests are so easy, and we can finish them in two/three battles.
    These quests should be separated from regular daily quests,and they should be added to captain level. They should be unlocked with each level.
    We should get hard level quests. In other words, we should spend longer time to finish these quests.
    Example: If I need 60k from level40 to level41 which will take around couple weeks of trainings, then we should spend at least a week to finish these quests. It shouldn't be a regular daily quest which we can finish in 10-15 mins.
    Harder quests mean higher rewards.
    You can adjust current level rewards, so we can claim them when we finish these level quests.

    I recommend that captain level should be reorganized. Maximum captain level should be at lvl80.
    Reason: All players reach lvl50 before completing all crew trainings. I don't remember when I reached lvl50, and I still have three or four crews which I have to work on. This will make the game more interesting in high levels. (Captain level is based on xp, so we won't face any problem in the new cpt level system. Old players cpt lvls will be adjusted based on their xp)

    On the other hand, current event rewards are killing the sense of progression for new players: All players have the same event rewards. Rewards should be adjusted based on capitain level or leagues. New players should feel like they are doing a valuable progress. Rewards should increase from a level to another or from a league to another. Same rewards = Progress isn't important.
    Different rewards will give all players the feeling that they are doing a valuable progress.

    In addition, current leagues rewards are so negligible compared to event rewards. We need higher leagues rewards to feel the progress that we completed.

    Check the threads below to understand my point of view about current event rewards and league rewards:
    https://forum.battlebay.net/threads/league-rewards-event-rewards.21466/
    https://forum.battlebay.net/threads/event-perks-pieces-and-guild-tokens-rewards.21076/

    Check my suggestions in this thread:
    https://forum.battlebay.net/threads...stom-battles-friends-chat-my-new-ideas.20304/


    • WarHawk •
     
  19. NoTtIaN

    NoTtIaN Well-Known Member

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    not only should this be a seperate thread but..
    my frist idea was to add a quest at each level 10, 20 and so on
    this quest will probably last you until.. 2 levels.
    - get top 10-1 in your league
    for the seperate level quest they should be
    - win x battles with every boat
    - upgrade all boats and win
    - get x shots with x weapon and win
    etc
    if captain level is 80, then make mk8s? no heh
    then make 5th cap level introduce 1/3 of a ship
    for the first 1/3 youl get looks (5)
    for the 2/3 youll get stats (10)
    for the 15th level youll get the slots (15)
    matchmaking should ONLY make you face same boats.
    and weaker boats will have a damage cap meaning they cant deal 400 or more dmg a mk1 (blast)
    or leagues make higher leagues also claim lower leagues rewards
    and for you to claim the reward, you must win 1 battle in the season (to prevent floaters)
     
  20. JoePerdue

    JoePerdue New Member

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    I agree. I'm at level 45 and about to quit this game for this very reason. You simply make zero progress. I've upgraded weapons and the like but am still can't break 3000 infamy for good, always slip down into the 2000s. We are very dependent on other players ability. Many times the matches are so lopsided one team has no chance to win (2 fixers, 2 speeders and a shooter going up against defenders and shooters. What's the use in trying to heal anyone when they're getting beat up by all kinds of firepower our team can't match). People try to convince you the game is improving but the wrong things are getting improved. Game fairness is not.
     

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