Proper nerf for the OP fire cannons

Im sure many of you would disagree that cannons are fire weapons, namely firebomb and flare.. but if that’s the case then you probably are using them yourself so you don’t want them nerfed and you haven’t acrually used other weapons for proper comparison.

First, let me ease your mind, I am not suggesting a dmg reduction, I am not sugggesting a cooldown nerf, probably the 2 things you would fear the most. Also, I would like to mention that a nerf to dmg of one cannon would cause a nerf for all cannons to keep things balanced so it would be a headache to do such a frivolous nerf.. yet the nerf I AM suggesting, will nerf all cannons, but I’ll also explain why.

FIRE WEAPONS
The fire weapons (usually firebomb) tend to be spammed and you end up seeing defenders with 9xfire debuffs on them taking a total of 900dmg a second, and leaving them open to be damaged even more by cannons. My suggestion here is that each fire debuff should do half of the damage of the first one..to compare, the tesla and frost debuffs don’t stack, so this nerf I suggest would be the same as the frost effects being halved for multiple debuffs on a target, it would simply be for multiple fire debuffs I.e. for that 9xfire on defender, the first would do 100dps, second would do only 50dps and the third would do 25dps and so on. This could apply to flare as well, some consideration may be needed for grenade and wildfire.

CANNONS
^speaking of wildfire, did you know that the frost and wildfire multipliers don’t stack? You probably didn’t, and you probably don’t know what the hell im talking about.. let’s say your big torp does 3000dmg, with wildfire it would burn 300dmgx4s=1200+3000=4200dmg on the target. Now if that same torp hits a frosted target and does 4000dmg, the wildfire would still only do 300dps instead of 400dps. Compare this to the cannons that can crit on a burning target and the 2 multipliers stack... you may think this wildfire issue is just a flaw with torps, it couldn’t possibly be enough evidence to say that cannon multipliers shouldn’t stack, but you would be caught ignorant by this next notion..
mortar Bullseyes! That’s right the mortar crit, low and behold, this does not stack with frost damage either! I’m not gonna bore you with another math problem, but ya mortar crit and effect multipliers don’t stack either.
So if it’s not obvious yet, I suggest that cannon crits and fire dmg shouldn’t stack.

[TL;DR] multiple fire debuffs halved, cannon crit+fire damage shouldn’t stack.

Edit/P.S. the fire could be halved by dmg or duration. Either would be fine, just not both obviously.

 

The issue I see with this is the comparisons you have drawn are for damage vs. Non-damage items, they're very different in nature.

For Tesla Bolt and your frost items, there is no damage impact for them. So realistically, it makes perfect sense that the strongest applied remains which currently it does, just you see the indicators of the others affecting the ship also though they don't stack per se.

However fire is a different case entirely. 'If' there were no talents at all that caused fire to increase the damage you take / reduce the healing you received and it was just damage, then the notion of debuffs wouldn't exist because there is no adverse side effect to it which is what a debuff essentially is, an application of something which hinders your ability to perform.

This is the problem when you treat fire as a debuff (and also why I object to the poorly conceived mechanics of the new cleanse object), the damage isn't the debuff it's the talents. Just as a cannon shot or mortar shell isn't a debuff, but asking for this you may as well ask for consecutive cannon / mortar etc. shots to deal half the damage of the predecessor.

Based on your post (a good one at that) I'd very much prefer they reduced the total affect of the debuff talents rather than the damage as that is a direct nerf.

 

Good response, I agree that the word “debuff” is quite loosely fitted on the burning effect. The idea of it only affecting the talents would only apply to the flare for its healing reduction so that seems trivial.

You said that the “strongest applied remains” this is true of the healing reductions, I.e the 50% reduction from frost blaster vs. the 30% from flare. The slowing effects from frost however do indeed make you slower when you are hit by multiple.

The way I would do my fire halving would only apply until the previous fire wore off, unlike how frost is, and a 50% reduction as I mentioned above is indeed harsh for the subsequent burns, but quite frankly the fire users have had their time to shine for awhile now so I for one would welcome a meta change. (If not simply balancing the issues)

P.s. I’m pretty sure that any status effect that is positive can be considered a buff, and any status effect that is negative is a debuff is the way they are using it. Loose, but applicable.

 

I used to hate firebombs but now I think fire is necessary evil that needs to exist especially in fixer bay 2018. There's no way cannons can keep up against 2+ fixer teams without fire combo. They just keep rest of the team under constant pulse and keep each other invincible with event perks. I'm fine with them getting rained on by firebombs.

 

I agree but would add in about the talents where an affliction by fire increases cannon damage, captured in their respective talent trees. Depending on which side of the fence your on will decide whether it's a buff / debuff for you.

In respect of your fire halving, essentially the principle behind Tesla Bolt where after it's expired, you got a form of resistance reducing the duration?

I don't think the actual damage needs to be nerfed and they surely can manage the mechanics of the talents. That said, and I agree with you, that's not in their interest, the Cleanse Pulse is evidence of that.

 

I disagree with all of this except the bit about the cleanse pulse.

Doesn’t depend which side you are on, your cannons aren’t boosted in damage against all enemies, that specific enemy takes more damage from cannons by any of your teamates.

Resistance from fire? Hell no! Did you even read my examples above where I stated the opposite? If anything I would only suggest the halving lasted only until the previous debuff wore off.

The damage definitely needs nerfed. Just not by traditional means, but by this simple balancing of the effect items I.e. halving these multiple flames and actually I’m favoring a duration halving to keep ships moving instead of hiding while burning.

 

i dont think cannon crit stacked with burnt damage, if that is true i could deal nearly 6k crit with my EC which is not true. My EC crit with fire is normaly around 3.7k

 

My crit without fire is worth about 3500.

 

which perks are you using on your EC? i can only do maximum of 4k

 

Event perks are frost (legendary) and speed (epic).

The crit calculation is weird with fire and cannons. It doesn't quite double the value of the hit after fire bonus but still gives a pretty big boost.

 

I'm in the same damage range. One day the stars aligned and I nailed a 5.2k crit, it must have been a max roll vs 0 armor enemy.

No nerfs to fire! The fire is a weapon, meant to do damage. If I'm running around with 3x flares, I expect each of them to do the damage (over time of course) of a cannon because that is what I'm sacrificing by carrying them around. Also, it's insanely fun to put 9 stacks of burn on a single target (only possible on +30% duration event), but please try it some time!

Because the fire items are in red slots, their damage should be on par with comparable red gear and therefore shouldn't be nerfed. If they were instead moved over to an orange item category, my argument would no longer hold water. If ships were limited in the number of fire items they could carry (orange category) maybe there would be less fire spam.

Keep in mind that with the new teal items, fire will weaken as more boats carry more fire duration debuffs. The nerf may have already been rolled out!

Regarding mitigating the crits from fire + cannon, I'm also against that. SC, EC and BC crit very seldom but when they do, they really capitalize on the fire bonus because they are usually boosted with fire perks. The sniper cannon crits frequently but is rarely outfitted with fire bonus perks, so it benefits less from the fire damage boost.

I've got no issue with boosting the mortar crit when it smacks a frozen boat, usually me as the slow blue blob.

Also, last I heard, ships frozen from cannon hits (freeze perk) don't take bonus damage from torpedoes or mortars. I'm in favor of devs fixing that issue.

 

Oh ya, I don’t mean to nerf you slayer and the crit thing would only seldom have an effect. The fire halving I actually would be fine with it being like a 20%reduction to the addiction fires instead of 50%(half) I just think that some is needed.

In addition though, those 3x 1slot flares should not be as good as they are. And spamming is just evil lol

 

FB is for kid, be a real man and use flare lol, the funny thing is FB user received a huge amount of bonus on stars/coins but not flare.

 

Like I said in guild chat, "If I see a boat that's not on fire, I don't like that."

But keep in mind while I'm waiting for the enemy ship to melt into an oil slick they can be popping me with weapons delivering immediate, full damage at the same DPS (give or take a few). I can be dead and they get to live another 15 seconds to be saved by a fixer or fire off a few pot shots at my friends.

I guess the other thing to note is that all three fire items have specific deficiencies.

Napalm: Heavy burn damage but people have to sit in it.
Fire Bomb: Slightly less heavy burn damage but direct hits are only way to get max duration (long range, slow projectile).
Flare: Lowest burn damage but guaranteed duration. Price is short range and slow projectile. Half the time I'm halfway dead by the time I get close enough to hit somebody.

 

@Djradnad I did read your post but you've misinterpreted mine somewhat.

If you're on fire, you are debuffed as your incoming cannon damage is increased by 30% damage. On the oppositions side you're cannon damage is increased by 30%, debuff vs buff.

Re the comparison to TB, it wasn't a statement but more to confirm my understanding of your thought. You'll know that a subsequent application of TB is at half duration for several seconds until the resistance affect wears off. So my query for clarity was if you were looking to apply the same logic which is now clearer.

 

Yep. Sorry if I came off rude in the last post, but for the cannons yea it could be looked at either way but personally I see it as a debuff moreso than as a buff. And for the TB yes the same halving logic, just without the resistence timer.

 

That's quite alright, I probably didn't articulate it well enough. You're not wrong with that point, being that it increases the damage you take and reduces your healing (flare in that respect) it certainly is quite punishing.