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DevReply Fixer balance in match ups

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Pro_Fesseur_Kev, 9 May 2018.

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  1. Pro_Fesseur_Kev

    Pro_Fesseur_Kev New Member

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    It’s really a problem in the matchmaking. Please fix it !!
    In this configuration, it’s 2/10 chances to win. For me it’s too unfair
     
  2. Help I Cant Swim

    Help I Cant Swim MVP

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    Devs have provided information before that 0 fixer vs 1 fixer is basically a 50% win rate.
     
  3. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    Yep, it's absolutely not 2/10. As a fixer, I sometimes feel like it's actually 8/10, because an enemy team with 5 DPS ships often tears my team apart. Luckily, devs have the actual numbers and don't have to rely on our biased minds.
     
  4. Kitterini

    Kitterini Well-Known Member

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    @Miika You posted stats to debunk this last time around. Guessing stats has remained roughly the same?
    ---
    In short - There is no truth behind your claim. 0 Fixer team Vs 1 Fixer team is a 50/50 matchup. If you lose 80% then you need to reevaluate how you approach those situations, cause the average player does far better.
     
  5. Ian

    Ian Well-Known Member

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    From an older thread:
     
    Last edited: 9 May 2018
  6. The Otherguy

    The Otherguy Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes I shred teams with fixers, sometimes they shred me.
     
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  7. Scourge Argaen

    Scourge Argaen Well-Known Member

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    In earlier leagues I thrived on those matches, I found it funny how easy they were. Now everytime I'm the only fixer i dread them - It's the strangest of phenomenons for me - None of my team want to stay together let alone keep near me. It's a total free for all and we get battered.

    I'm like, okay that dude chasing their whole team clearly is in need so imma go heal him... oh yup well shit happens when you play piggy in the middle.. Hey that guy is getting hammered let me go over there and oh nope... he literally smooched that torpedo.... Hmm nope he already dead.. let me go sail across the ocean for that guy and...... f*** it. /camp.
     
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  8. YerJokinArnYer

    YerJokinArnYer MVP

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    I’ve watched the battle and I’m sorry to say that your team’s tactics were all wrong.

    At the start, the enemy stayed way back in their spawn point. Your team tried to engage them from long distance (behind the central pillar). I think your team were so used to playing games in chill zone that revolve around the central pillar that they couldn’t adapt when it wasn’t fought that way. Whilst your team may have got in a few shots, it was not greater than the enemy fixer could heal. Therefore as the end of the first phase ended, your team had lost health whilst the opposition was at full health.
    Your team then moved up, but continued with the peek a boo tactics. Your team managed to get a speeder down to low health, but couldn’t land the killing blow. All the while the enemy was chipping away at your teams health, and your team’s inevitable defeat. Too much focus went into trying to kill that speeder, but really he should have died given the amount of shots that were fired at him.

    When playing against fixer (when you don’t have one yourself) your team needs to be very aggressive. Speeders should be trying to distract the enemy damage dealers, or even trying to get a run at the fixer itself. Heavy Damage dealers (shooters etc) need to get closer and use a constant barrage to deal more damage than the enemy fixer can heal. Preferably also focussing fire on a small number of the opposition. You need to make those extra guns count.

    Playing conservative hide and seek tactics just results in a long, slow, painful death.

    Please don’t take this as personal criticism of you. I write this to try to help you learn and improve. Hopefully you will start to see a improvement in your results in no fixer v fixer games. :)
     
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  9. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    I’m pretty sure that having a Fixer versus no Fixer is quite a big advantage. I haven’t read anything from the Devs that contradicts that, only that they believe it’s within thier threshold of being ‘winnable’.

    The problem is thier reasoning is based on statistics from games, where there are quite a lot of variables that aren’t controlled for. Just because a Fixer team loses, doesn’t mean they didn’t have an advantage. Maybe they ‘should’ have won, but some idiot suicided etc...

    When you analyse strategic components within a game, you would usually do it in the context of what is called ‘perfect play’, which means both teams play perfectly without any mistakes.

    For example, in the game Connect Four, the first player always wins (with perfect play). Even if the second player also plays perfectly and makes no mistakes, he will still ultimately lose.

    I think this is also true with Fixer teams. They have time on thier side, and are able to repair damage, and force a mistake. IMO with perfect play, the Fixer team will likely ‘always’ win.

    Which is why, when a Fixer team does play well, they can often feel unbeatable.
     
  10. Kitterini

    Kitterini Well-Known Member

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    Stats tends to beat feelings :) It might very well be that your personal experience is that 1 Fixer beats 0 Fixer, but for the combined playerbase its simply not the case (at the very least it wasnt at the time of the thread quoted above).

    The Miika quote wasnt the interesting one, he gave actual win %-ages for various fixer destributions. All of them were shockingly close to 50/50. Not until you get 3+ Fixers on one side does it have a traceable effect, and the effect is negative for the side with the 3+ Fixers.
     
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  11. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    Well I think you’re misrepresenting what I said. I don’t ‘feel’ that player 1 always wins at Connect Four, it’s a proven fact. However if you were to look at stats from thousands of ‘imperfect’ games of Connect Four, you would likely also see a roughly 50:50 distribution.

    My point is that stats from random imperfect games, aren’t necessarily the best way to analyse a game of strategy.

    Also, don’t be too quick to dismiss ‘feelings’. Human intuition is extremely adept at spotting patterns, and solving problems. Chess grandmasters play intuitively, and that is how chess theory developed, and that intuition is still able to match powerful computers.

    So I’d actually argue the the feelings/intuitions of expert players are ‘in fact’ better than random stats taken from random uncontrolled games.
     
  12. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    Connect Four has been mathematically solved. There is a known set of "correct" and "incorrect" moves for every position. Chess hasn't been solved, because of a lack of computational and storage power - the number of positions is several orders of magnitude higher. At some point along the graph of Moore's Law, computers will become superior players.

    Battle Bay hasn't been "solved" but there are obviously very strong general strategies. @YerJokinArnYer summarized the playstyle necessary when you have no Fixer, and especially when your 0-Fixer team has a large number of Yellow boats - play very aggressively. If I saw that matchup in a loading screen, I would expect maybe fifteen or twenty seconds of calm at the start of the game, and then to be ruthlessly and brutally slaughtered by a two-pronged attack from the Bananas and Oranges.
     
  13. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    I think the best way to examine it would be to play it out, repeatedly, with the same teams, on the same map, so that they’re actually able to perfect these strategies together, and develop counter strategies. Then we could make a better assessment over whether they actually work, or if they’re dependant on the other team making a mistake.

    On different maps where the Fixer is easier/harder to defend, the results might be different.
     
    Last edited: 10 May 2018
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  14. xxxBISMARCKxxx

    xxxBISMARCKxxx Well-Known Member

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    Not true. But yeah it's not 2/10 either.
     
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  15. Rainbow Warrior

    Rainbow Warrior Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying that one person perception based only in his personal experience can provide better analisys than other people with every possible data available to them? I'd say "aristotelian spontaneous generation" was concepted by a guy who was known as a hell of a thinker and it is terribly wrong :D
     
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  16. xxxBISMARCKxxx

    xxxBISMARCKxxx Well-Known Member

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    This isn't true. Well, it is true as far as "statistics beat feelings" but you dont have any actual statistics. You're reading words incorrectly and jumping to wrong conclusions.

    [Personal attacks removed]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10 May 2018
  17. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    They don’t have ‘every possible data’ all they’ve got is data from random games, with players who aren’t able to communicate, practice or strategise together. You can’t draw any conclusions about which strategy is most effective from games where it’s almost impossible for the players to execute that strategy properly.

    So yes, speculation, by experienced players, on who ‘should’ have the advantage, probably is more valuable.
     
  18. Rainbow Warrior

    Rainbow Warrior Well-Known Member

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    [Personal attacks removed]
    Isn't it the way the game occurs? Why do you think a controlled sample with unrealistic scenario that can not happen on our daily basis would provide more realistic information?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 10 May 2018
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  19. xxxBISMARCKxxx

    xxxBISMARCKxxx Well-Known Member

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    And the people with the data said it's not "too" unfair. Clear implication being it's somewhat unfair, and certainly not straight up even otherwise it would be worded as such.
     
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  20. R@jith anand

    R@jith anand Well-Known Member

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    Hey here is ur answers. Screenshot_2018-05-10-01-49-15-58.png Screenshot_2018-05-10-01-50-14-17.png
     
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