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With this update, the devs have showcased an astounding lack of understanding of their own game

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Epicular, 5 Sep 2018.

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  1. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    That’s an interesting statement, and one I encounter a lot, in all manner of games: “this strategy requires skill”. You know what doesn’t require skill? Stuff that’s good! That’s what makes it good. So whenever I hear someone say “this requires skill” what I actually interpret that to mean is: “this is weak, so you have to make up the shortfall by working much harder”.

    If Speeder really does require more skill to play well than other boats, then I would suggest that it is unbalanced, and should be buffed until it requires the same skill.

    No, but in a balanced game, each boat should have a workable strategy against other boats. Defender has more weapons and HP than Speeder, so it’s the default winner unless Speeder can do something to counter it, and that ‘something’ probably shouldn’t be so difficult that only the top 10% of players have the ‘skill’ to pull it off.

    And as I have said before, staying permanently behind the turret, isn’t generally something Speeders are able to do (I wish it were that easy to beat Defenders).

    It will be interesting to see, however, I don’t agree that the top 10 is the best barometer for balance in the game.
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2018
  2. TheAntiSnipe

    TheAntiSnipe Moon's haunted

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    I disagree on this point, however. Every boat, to play it on the level of a pro, needs the same amount of skill. For example.

    Look at defenders, you might say all they need to do is tank, but look at the best defenders, they flank and play vanguard, making enemies pay dearly for every hitpoint they take.

    Look at fixers, you might say that all they need to do is heal. These guys and girls need to make the hardest choices in the game. All we do is choose whether to flank or rush, these folks have to choose between who lives and who dies sometimes.

    Look at shooters. Now you might say that shooters are spammy, but I've played shooter, and I've seen the best shooters in the game play it. They have the tedious job of ALWAYS knowing who needs to get hit by what.

    Enfos and speeders are no strangers to the two of us, one is hyper agile and one is hyper fast.

    Of course, being players who have played multiple boats in the past, we all have our tastes, our boats, or setups that we swear by. But I think we can all appreciate the fact that every boat requires skill. It may be that some players have more skill in the department of their main boats, but as I said, there's really no such thing as high-skill and low-skill. I for one think shooter needs more skill to play than every boat except fixer, because I SUCK at shooter, I suck at directing DPS at multiple players. But a shooter main might think speeders need much more skill to play.
     
  3. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

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    Or, it could mean that driving at that speed takes a greater understanding of the map and obstacles since you can't always look where you're going. Higher risk, higher return items and ships are a part of the game, but sure ... we could make all items equally easy to use.

    But, your astounding logic has won me over. You're right! Speeders need crazy buffs. Please Devs buff speeders and nerf all else!!!

    Lower skilled speeders are obviously doing just as well against lower skilled shooters, otherwise they would drop infamy like rocks.

    But, I'm curious why are you automatically switching over and using shooter - if it's so OP? ... [An argument I've heard many, many times from yellow boats users].

    No, you're right! Why would the top of the leaderboard be a good indicator of what's the most powerful ships at the top levels?

    Rather than looking at the ships that do well (and at the people that have the option of switching ships), we should include all the people that rarely log on to play (staying at 4k infamy) with equal weight ... people that couldn't switch if they wanted to, people that want variety in items, and people that focus guild quests.

    Your logic is amazing. Thank you. I'm sold.

    Have a wonderful day :)
     
    Ultrah, TheAntiSnipe and Djradnad like this.
  4. Djradnad

    Djradnad Well-Known Member

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    I always love the fine balance of good points and jackassary in your posts. That’s really all I wanted to say, but let me add some on topic filler.

    Just saying that you have skill with a certain ship compared you to others with your ship, I find it hard to compare the skill between 2 players in different ship. Also if I did have some baseline to measure them by, it has been shifted by the new update and will take sometime before we can feel out where we all stand skillwise in this new high agility bay.
     
  5. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad someone gets my sense of humor :D
     
    Ultrah, TheAntiSnipe and Djradnad like this.
  6. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    Well now who is misrepresenting arguments, and resorting to thinly veiled ad hominem. You’re the one that claimed Speeder required more skill, yet also seem to think it requires no skill when it comes to sinking Defenders. :rolleyes:

    Also, if I’m taking all these risks, where is my more reward? I get +24 like everyone else.

    Well we don’t really know yet that they won’t drop like rocks, it’s only day two. I certainly haven’t noticed my games getting any easier though.

    I used to play Shooter, and I thought it was OP even back then. After I switched, I realised just how overused, one dimensional, and cancerous it is for the game. I’ve had so many games where I was the only non-Shooter, it’s actually kind of sad that the Devs have let it get so bad.

    I will never play Shooter. The day I’m truely convinced that switching to Shooter is my only option to progress in this game, will be the day I quit Battle Bay.

    No one said anything about top levels. This agility update affected all levels. And balance should be about like vs like, not who can fleet with another 5k player and trash the most Ace 1 rookies in a week, or who can afford the most t5 legendaries.

    That doesn’t help me, or 99% of other players have a more balanced experience. In fact it often makes our experience worse, as we see item nerfs that don’t make any sense in lower level metas. Like 20 second Cool Down for a 6 second Stun.

    Well that’s mature. FYI I’m quite interested in logic (formal logic) and rhetoric, and it appears that you are too. Maybe when you grow up we could have some nice discussions (without the sarcasm). ;)
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2018
  7. Spongeboat

    Spongeboat Well-Known Member

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    Amen brother, Amen.
     
  8. xArrogance

    xArrogance Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha .. I was responding with sarcasm because I thought your post was full of it .. lol I had no idea you actually believed that stuff (e.g., speeders have no workable strategy for winning now :rolleyes:)

    But, to clear a few things up:

    The higher reward is that if you make it to 1v1 .. You decide the outcome of the match over a shooter or defender - or should assuming any level of skill.

    But, @TheAntiSnipe was right. It may seem like it takes more skill because I rarely play speeder (since I don't have the items to do so properly), but it's simply a different skill set.

    I suppose the extra 2k HPs I have over those speeders is a fair trade for the massive difference in how easy it is to hit me vs how difficult it is to hit them .. 18% more HP for 200% more mobility.

    I can't speak to lower level infamies because I blew right through them .. But I assumed you meant NML since you keep bringing up the BB-stats site ..
    (Based on the tone of the OP, there's absolutely no way he would misrepresent or change stats to fit the agenda he's pushing) ...

    And, the only NMLs I see with max legendaries (all two of them) are still getting smashed by yellow boats .. I would post replays but that would be viewed as "shaming" those individuals
     
  9. AAZ7

    AAZ7 Active Member

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    Well... Nice post.
    But for me almost nothing changed. Maybe because my main setups are 4 cannons + 1 swift torp or 3 cannons + 2 swift torps.
    Anyway, torps still hit their targets, and better turret agility made it much easier to destroy speeders, lol =)
    But I don't mind "better balancing" at all.
     
  10. YerJokinArnYer

    YerJokinArnYer MVP

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    Reminder - please keep on topic and avoid personal attacks on others.
     
  11. Epicular

    Epicular Well-Known Member

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    Now this I take offense at. My opinions held on this forum are held separately from the work that I do to provide data for the community, which is a job that I take very seriously.

    As a player of the game and as a member of the community, I believe that I am allowed to hold opinions on the state of the game. The work that I do on bb-stats.com is just raw, automated data collection - which means I never look at or touch the data itself, and my opinion does not factor into the results in any way whatsoever.

    If you want to challenge the process that I use for data collection, then by all means go for it - but the fact that you disagree with an unrelated opinion of mine is not sufficient grounds upon which to attack the validity of my work.

    If you think that I am manipulating the data, then why don’t you try verifying it? The data is all right in your game client - there’s nothing stopping you.

    As for my so-called “agenda”, I have no particular dog in the fight in terms of individual ships or weapons. I am genuinely concerned about the state of the game and the balance between game elements, and I have stated such concern on this forum. I am not trying to advocate for buffs for Speeders, or for nerfs for shooters/defenders. I am simply stating that I think the max agility concept is a bad idea.

    It is laughable that you think that I would dedicate my entire stat collection project to making an appeal to a company that undoubtedly has better access to stats than I do (not to mention that I never even cited any of my stats in my arguments!!).
     
  12. SlayerofSergeants

    SlayerofSergeants Well-Known Member

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    If you're going to not so subtly hint at the OP's motivations, don't hide behind nearly invisible text.

    Given the nearly hidden text, this is clearly sarcasm and as such I read this as you suggesting he manipulates data on the bb-stats site. You are impugning his gathered data in an attempt to discredit his reputation and therefore advance your own argument. This neatly fits the definition of an ad hominem fallacy.

    Prove your assertion or get out. Hypocrite.
     
    Last edited: 7 Sep 2018
  13. Greatgambler440

    Greatgambler440 Active Member

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    I had the same thoughts in my mind
     
  14. ryanllts

    ryanllts Active Member

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    basically its people who playing speeder crying that they cant 1 vs 2 anymore, and no more 100% win on 1v1 . they dont like 1v1at 50% win chance.
     
  15. Dr.pie

    Dr.pie Member

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    Definitely not the same as adjusting turning sensitivity, lmao, completely differend stratosphere what you're talking about. The developers already made maximum sensitivity free for everyone, so now to balance out everyones skill set in movement, just like in every other game why not allow them to... adjust their personal sensitivity to gain perfect control? It won't make your boat stronger or your weapons more powerful, but it will give you maximum control to your movement, so everyone would be able to edge out their own movement control, hence more balance
     
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  16. Jerbears

    Jerbears Active Member

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    I'm curious what ship you play? Based on your "Viewpoint" I believe its a yellow one. For me my main two are shooter/Defender and this update was everything I wanted and more. Not only were two useless items removed but I was able to swap the ones I had in my inventory for specific epic/legendaries of my CHOICE! Because of this I was able to finish my epic T5 Big shield and T5 Bandage. How are you salty about that? Also now when you complete your blue items you have even less of a random number game to get one that you want. I do agree that there was a layer of strategy lost. But a few more were added. Now you can dodge behind a wave on a shooter panning left or right much quicker to make cannons miss. On a defender you can tightly pan around a rock so anything but a well placed grenade will miss. This is a new update so I'm sure things will get balanced again. In your solution section you don't actually have any solutions, was this intended ???
     
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  17. Epicular

    Epicular Well-Known Member

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    The ships I play are irrelevant. But nonetheless, I will tell you that I play all five ships depending on my mood for the day, and I will provide a list of my favorite to least favorite ships:
    1. Enforcer
    2. Shooter
    3. Defender
    4. Fixer
    5. Speeder
    What? I have no clue what you’re talking about. The transmuting process is unimportant to me.

    I listed three broad approaches, did you not read them?
     
  18. Jerbears

    Jerbears Active Member

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    So for 2) Actively attempt to maintain game balance

    Isn't that what they do with every patch? I guess you don't give any examples of how to do it better?

    For 3) Listen to community

    That's exactly what they did to create this patch. They listened to people complaining about how bad gear lube and rudder is. So guess what? They removed it...

    Umm how about 1) Revert change

    Lol? Good suggestion, have them revert the patch. Do you see why I question the constructive parts of your post. Think there are facts missing. Usually when you make a suggestion you back it up with facts rather than opinions..
     
  19. Jerbears

    Jerbears Active Member

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    I mean don't get me wrong, A LOT of people here support your post and agree the update was intense. I'm just trying to point out that before people yell this is trash, revert revert share how you think it could be implemented better
     
  20. StrictSalmon307

    StrictSalmon307 Well-Known Member

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    The devs don't balance things with every patch. There have been updates where no balancing happened. Also, most people in the community suggested combining rudder and lube.
    I also don't think they should revert the patch to before.
     
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