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Item popularity snapshot - June 2018

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Miathan, 15 Jun 2018.

  1. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    Not against Tesla Shields.
     
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  2. Shadow Moon!

    Shadow Moon! Well-Known Member

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    2017 is past almost 6 months now. You can't always say same thing over and over again. If it was so good why didn't everyone else in top 50 just used speeder?
     
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  3. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    It's true though, isn't it? Why does a fact about Battle Bay history bother you?
     
  4. Shadow Moon!

    Shadow Moon! Well-Known Member

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    How does history affects current situation? Isn't the balances are about fair gameplay? Or is it like you enjoyed opness back then now let us enjoy the same? How is that going to help anyone?
     
  5. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    I don’t see how 21 Enforcers is significantly better than 25 Speeders.
     
  6. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    Noone said that they wanted OPness. However, 7 speeders (a deviation of 3 from the "perfect" situation where each ship has 10) is better than 25. It's closer to balance, though obviously I'm singling out 1 ship in a small data set here.

    The past is relevant because it shows us that speeder might just have moved closer to where it should be, judged by its representation at the top.
     
  7. TheFixer27

    TheFixer27 Well-Known Member

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    @ViscountSniffit would be like :p
     
  8. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    Err, I think you’ll find the ‘perfect’ situation, is where each of the four ships has 12.5

    Nerfing other ships so that Shooters have an equal chance, is like nerfing olympic swimmers so that people in waterwings can keep up. :p
     
  9. Shadow Moon!

    Shadow Moon! Well-Known Member

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    Perfect balance is impossible to achieve in any game. And pro players are going to adapt to the meta anyways. Previously it was speeder now it is shooter/enforcer and they have enjoyed their fair share of time at top. Its high time to shuffle the meta away from enforcers, mines and flare blast.
     
  10. Shadow Moon!

    Shadow Moon! Well-Known Member

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    And speeder hasn't moved anywhere but the opness has shifted to enforcer and people are going to use that gives them advantage. Haven't you seen previously it was 20+ speeders now its 20+ enforcers. It is same as before just the ship is different.
     
  11. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    @Shadow Moon! Oh, I'm not arguing against Enforcer having too much of a presence. But what we need to replace those enforcers with is in the first place fixers and defenders.

    @ViscountSniffit Eh, your math is weird? 4 times 12.5 is 50, are you saying there should not be any shooters at the top? There are 15 right now, shooter is definitely not underpowered o_O

    Shooters will probably stay where they are. Lets say they keep 14, that means we should aim for the other ships to have 9 each. Of the 4 non-shooter ships, speeder is closest to that number.
     
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  12. ViscountSniffit

    ViscountSniffit Well-Known Member

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    I was just having a little joke, sort of :rolleyes:

    But on a more serious note, it would be misguided to discuss balance without discussing risk (or skill) versus power.

    For example: Standard Cannon is fast and easy to hit with (it is low risk, low skill); Big Torp is slow and difficult to hit with, so it is ‘generally’ considered high risk, high skill. It would not make sense for both weapons to have the same DPS, that would make Cannon OP. It should be obvious that for both weapons to be ‘balanced’ Big Torp needs more power, to compensate for it being more difficult.

    However, imagine a situation where we’ve got two perfect players that never miss (maybe they are super AIs from the future). We give one a Big Torp, and the other a Standard Cannon, and let them battle... The Big Torp will always win, because it’s more powerful and the player’s skill is high enough to negate the difficulty.

    The only way to balance that game would be to give both weapons the same DPS again, but that would unbalance the game for the rest of us. And it’s actually ‘unfair’ because even with infinite skill, the cannon is still requiring less. There is no way to reconcile this problem.

    Now, if I bring this back to discussion of the top 50: we’re not talking about a random sample. The top 50 ‘should’ (at least in principle) be the most ‘skilled’ players in the Bay. This should be an arena where high risk, high skill, strategies have been perfected and really start to outshine low risk low skill strategies.

    To argue that all ships should be equally represented there, is to argue that all ships require the same amount of risk and skill to use.

    I’ll leave it up to you to decide if that is the case or not (something to think about). I don’t want to derail the topic by making a statement either way, except to say that it is ‘unlikely’.

    The same is true for items, where I think it should be obvious that some items certainty require more risk/skill than others by design.
     
  13. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    @ViscountSniffit Well written post and I think you're right, but while that may be an obstacle for defenders to ever see good representation at the top, I don't see a reason why the other 4 couldn't be balanced.

    Looking at the current situation, I would not say enforcer requires significantly more skill to use than other ships, nor that the blast + flare combo requires more skill and risk than other weapons. If anything, it requires less, and that's why it's so popular. It's reliable.

    In fact, I think the dominance of projectile weapons (sniper, blast, flare, explosive) and the low use of torpedos and mortars proves you wrong, on the weapons part. Risky weapons don't see more use in the top 50 at all. Or would you argue their damage is too low?
     
  14. Shadow Moon!

    Shadow Moon! Well-Known Member

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    Definitely we have to not just top 50 but at every level. Some ships not doubt going to dominate the meta regardless of any balances. What I want is continuous shifting of meta so the leader board keeps shuffling not just 1 players or ship dominating it for months.
     
  15. TVNPryde

    TVNPryde Well-Known Member

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    @Miathan, can you provide a decent setup for defender in NM without ECs? While enforcer kept getting buffs and the counters for it kept getting nerfed. Last year when speeders ruled the water was because frost and telsa bolts. Both of those got nerded to death now. Look at how easy Peter King is getting top now with his enforcer.
     
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  16. What's Up Player

    What's Up Player Well-Known Member

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    Flare + dual explosive (still), flare + blast + explosive, flare + dual blast, flare + explosive + cannon, flare + blast + cannon, flare + dual cannon, dual flare + explosive, dual flare + cannon.. shall I continue?
    I've seen some defenders using Railgun in NML, even carronade or grenade would do just great.

    Added ones with explosive also, because it's still a beast.

    Edit:

    Examples of top 100 defenders setups:
    Screenshot_2018-06-17-22-16-44-396_com.rovio.battlebay.png
    Screenshot_2018-06-17-22-17-04-517_com.rovio.battlebay.png
    Screenshot_2018-06-17-22-17-59-757_com.rovio.battlebay.png
    Screenshot_2018-06-17-22-18-16-174_com.rovio.battlebay.png
     
    Last edited: 17 Jun 2018
  17. Miathan

    Miathan Well-Known Member

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    Anything else? There are 19 weapons in the game, are you saying if you remove 1 from the equation it's impossible to make a good setup?

    I'm not going to suggest one because I only play fixer with mine and I honestly don't have the experience to know what would work.
     
  18. Sidd gamer

    Sidd gamer Active Member

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    good work
     
  19. Flipscuba

    Flipscuba Well-Known Member

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    Defenders 2/50 in the top ranked but Defenders are totally fine don't need a thing yep yep yep
     
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  20. YerJokinArnYer

    YerJokinArnYer MVP

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    You’re right, it doesn’t make great reading. But conversely, Defenders have been absolute beasts in Events. Ranked is not the only game mode.
     
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