Why is infamy reset a thing?

THANK YOU good God somebody understands.
A masterful presentation, at that.

 

This is only going to postpone the downward pressure for a season or two. Once those players cross the threshold, they will still continue to gain and lose infamy at the same rate as now. Any system in which more infamy is destroyed than created is going to exert downward pressure on the lower leagues and on new players climbing out of the bot farm.

The opposite issue is that if infamy isn't destroyed as fast as it's created is going to cause infamy inflation. Those players that do really well will never be caught without a reset.

I like Pastel Piku's idea of reducing infamy/win as a player reaches beyond 4,500 or 5,000 infamy. Eventually they are gaining/losing only 1 point to try to clamber up the ranks...

 

Thats a good explanation, I find that even though my gear gets better, I am still at the same infamy whiel also seeing people with tier 5 epics at 2000 infamy
Its probably time for a new league higher up with a rest while NM shouldnt have one.

 

It has been described in some posts going back a few months. I've been pondering on it for awhile based on the posts that brought the issue to light.

Maybe there should be an infamy floor, based on the highest MK ship of your fleet. For instance, at infamy reset, anybody with a ship of:

MK7 gets kicked up to 3,500 infamy.
MK6 gets kicked up to 2,250 infamy.
MK5 gets kicked up to 1,500 infamy.
MK4 gets kicked up to 1,000 infamy.
MK3 gets kicked up to 700 infamy.

No floor for MK 1 or 2. In this manner those new players have at least a few days to compete with other players of their levels. There are ships of all levels "feeding" the nightmare infamy destruction.

Of course these levels would need to be adjusted from a developer's perspective of having access to actual infamy destruction and creation levels as well as an understanding of which ships really belong in which league. I don't recall where infamy levels at each league start/stop.

 

One more thing to add. If this change occurs, maybe the infamy penalty floor should be changed. Instead of a flat 800 infamy floor, the penalty shouldn't kick in until 1,000 down for MK7 and MK6, 900 down for MK5 and 800 down for MK4 and MK3, with the basis set at highest current season infamy.

 

First of all. Can somebody explain to me what issues would some players having 100k infamy actually causes?.

All of you talk about how removing the reset all together will cause infamy inflation this and that and yet nobody seems to explain why infamy inflation is 'bad'.

This is a game, not a currency of some country. Devaluation due to inflation is not going to wreck you.

Infact, in economics, inflation means you get more supply than demand. This will usually result in a decrease in the value of the currency in question.
However, in a game, the supply and demand will only be dictated by how much people play. Removing the reset altogether will not result in inflation (Technically).

It will merely result in people going to the infamy levels they actually belong to. I fail to see any negative aspects and I have questioned the devs regarding the same. Their only explanation was that "nightmare league players will get bored and have nothing to do if there is no reset".

That's right, the devs actually believe that the nightmare players enjoy all their progress being reset and being forced to fight ace and below.

Here's something you all need to know. Removing the reset means the top players will keep rising and so will all the players below them. If infamy wasn't reset then you may eventually find mk1 ships at 1k infamy or higher.

Gaining infamy will be much easier cause the infamy ranges from nightmare to warrior will be much more spread out. This ofc means that the psychological value we place on infamy will fall but here's the thing. THIS MEANS WE'LL ALL HAVE MORE FUN.

Oh and here's another argument the devs implied on having an infamy reset. IT WOULDN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE EVEN IF IT DIDN'T EXIST.

Apparently they truly believe that forcing a 4.5k infamy guy and a 6k infamy guy to be reset and matched with 4k infamy people would make no difference.

Cause you see, there's not many people up there and so even without the reset, they'll still be matched up with the same people they were matched up with the reset.

WRONG. Cause you see, when you reset 4.5k guys and 6k guys down to 4k guys. The matchmaking can't differentiate between which guy was a 6k infamy pre reset and which one was 4.5k.

It believes they're all of the 4k level. When you have no reset, you'll still end up with ace1 being matched with nightmares.

When there is no reset, you may still be matched with nightmares. But the difference between their infamy levels will be in 500s. Not over 1k. In other words you'll still end up being matched with nightmares but you'll be matched with people from the bottom lot, not the top 10.

Yes, no infamy reset means infamy inflation BUT SO WHAT?. WHY THE FUDGE ARE YOU LOT SO WORRIED ABOUT PEOPLE GETTING 100K INFAMY?. (Using caps for emphasis, not yelling).

Give me 1 valid reason why infamy inflation is wrong and if I find it legit then I shall apologize and withdraw.

If you people legit believe that infamy being spread out within 6k is better than infamy having a range of say 1 million then just request players to earn 1 infamy per win and lose 1 per loss

There, simple, problem solved. People will gain max infamy of around 10k without reset and all players will be matched with players on their actual infamy levels. Not against people who were supposed to be at higher levels.

Oh and here's another thing you need to know. The infamy reset is constant and happens every 2 weeks. The cap isn't raised. This means no matter how much you progress, how much the top players progress. They'll always be reset down.

You know what this means?. Unless you are more active and you are progressing at a rate that is much higher than the people above you in terms of skill and item quality, your infamy will never increase. Infact, if your progress is less than the people above.

Your infamy will keep dropping. When I first joined the game, there wasn't a single mk4 below 1k and a single mk5 below 1.3k. And now they keep dropping and dropping all the way to 300 infamy worse case scenario.

And they will continue to drop due to the issues caused by the resets till every ships in the matches right after bot battles are mk5s and 6s.

You may argue "But I've been constantly rising in infamy despite what you say". Any progress you make is most probably due to the slacking off and even quitting of higher league players rather than your own hardwork. I'm sorry but that's how it works from what I've seen. You simply CAN'T progress above without upgrading at a rate higher than those above you.

That's how the infamy system has been built in the very foundations.

Here's something else you lot need to know, the lower the mk5s drop in infamy, the more annoying it's gonna be for newbies. The more harder it becomes for newbies, the less people will actively keep playing it (you'll keep getting downloads but no newbie will keep playing this game actively after getting bashed by mk5s for more than a week).

Back when I was first arguing about this with the devs, their response was that the mk5s were low in skills and were matched accurately against the mk1s and 2s.

Idk about most newbies but I didn't even know how to lead my shots till I was mk3 and at 1k infamy.

If I just started yesterday and was better than the average newbie, will I be able to take out mk5s?. (YES I know many of you made smurf accounts and killed many mk5s but I am not questioning your skill against bad mk5s, I'm questioning newbie skills against mk5s).

If this keeps on going and no newbie plays longer than a week. Even if the game gets tons of downloads, the game will eventually die cause take a look around you, the old players are getting tired of the bull and are leaving.

They might actually be interested to keep playing and see how high they can go in infamy but oops, there's a cap and a reset, uh oh, how pointless.

Here's another thing I want all of you to know. Most of you can understand why infamy reset sucks and can't understand why it exists, and yet it exists cause the devs argue it exists.

I'm yet to see a decent valid explanation from them as to why it exists and every time I have confronted them before and counter their points they end it with the same "You are just arguing with the assumption that we are wrong and I will not encourage this any further by responding to you".

I can only see one reason for the infamy reset to exist and it exists so that all the players can be frustrated and annoyed all the time and maybe some of them will be forced to buy stuff just to get into decent infamy levels.

Call me crazy, call me a dev hater but it is the only logical answer I can see. Please do explain why infamy inflamation is a bad thing.

Is there any nightmare player who has stated that he'd be bored if infamy was never reset?.

Has infamy reset ever been removed before and had negative consequences and if yes, what are they?. What was it like before there was a reset and to counter which issues was the reset placed in the first place?.

Is infamy reset being applied simply cause the devs believe it is the right way to do things without ever trying alternatives?. Is having no cap or reset being denied simply cause the devs believe it won't be appropriate?.

Do we have any stats on this issue or merely the opinion of the devs?.

Can somebody please answer me?. I've been asking this for like ever since I've reached master 1 over 6 months ago.

Thank you for reading this enormous thing and I hope you'll try to understand what I'm trying to convey.

 

Look, I'm on board with the nightmare reset even though I think it causes damage to all players in it's current state. Could be because I'm in nightmare.

If I saw the leaders of nightmare extending out into 15k infamy I'd be damn frustrated and think I'd never get there. Probably leave. Nightmare reset provides a carrot on the stick for those of us who would actually like to be competitive.

I think there should be an alternative method to feed infamy into the system to offset the nightmare reset.

From a monetary standpoint, if the reset didn't occur, infamy inflation would be a thing and more and more players would be floating into nightmare. There they'd earn legendary and epics every season and would have less incentive to buy pearls and deals with real dollars.

I agree with several other points in your post. I don't think new players should be greeted with MK4 to MK6 ships right out of the starting gate. How disheartening for them!

 

What did I learn today?
1. Battle Bay is a microcosm of society.
2. Infamy is directly linked to money- uh oh, that might encourage the whales.
3. The infamy reset is partially due to getting money. The infamy reset means a continuous supply of money for Rovio as people spend money to grind every two weeks. Rovio have a demand for money.
4. Inflation should happen for a healthy game economy. As supply increases, the demand should meet it at an equilibrium so that the price of infamy would be higher would be higher, causing people to spend more money on the game as people would want to rise very high and be the best. All this reset is doing is shifting the supply of infamy to the left, reducing the price of infamy. Infact this just makes the game lose money as many people would be encouraged to float during the infamy seasons and just play a few matches, to stay at the same infamy as everyone else. The players that try very hard are not getting rewarded causing people to stop playing and to stop paying as well.
Therefore I really think that if money is what u want, it wont hurt to take away the infamy reset. In theory, you might even make even more money than usual. Which would make you

 

You are on board with something that encourages a small minority of the whole playerbase to be competitive despite it damaging the rest of the player base just so you can have fun. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't want to attack you personally but I need clarification, isn't that selfish?.

You would be frustrated if you see top players reaching 15k infamy, but you see, gaining infamy would be a lot more easier if there was no reset, getting 1k infamy would be as easy as getting 100 infamy.

The frustration you'd feel looking at a player 5k above you without reset would be the same frustration of looking at a player 500 infamy above you with reset. That's how infamy inflation works, the value of infamy would decrease meaning you'd feel less pressure trying to get 1 infamy and you'll feel less depressed losing 1 infamy.

You know what less pressure and depression means? MORE FUN. Finally, you say everybody would get into nightmare. So what?. We'll just have to increase the infamy ranges required to promote to different leagues.

That's not too difficult is it?. Say 1k for warrior 2. 2k for warrior 1 and so on?. Seems right?. Not too much work?.

Do you understand what I'm saying?. If not or you do understand but you feel I am wrong, then please state so and state why and I'll attempt to provide more insights if I am not wrong.

If you are right then you are right and I will withdraw. You are not wrong. Nightmares need to feel more competitive, removing the cap however will only ease it rather than put more pressure on it.

 

The 4th point seems inaccurate. Inflation is bad. Inflation is bad for everything see.

But what would happen if the reset is removed is not exactly "inflation of infamy". The reset actually takes off chunks of infamy from the top. Due to continuous resetting of deletion of infamy, we have a nonstop growing playerbase that is being forced to make do with a fixed range of infamy.

This results in hyper inflation, of not infamy, but the "psychological value" of infamy.

More people want infamy, and keep wanting more infamy but most of us can't cause the reset takes away anything we can make. The demand for infamy keeps increasing, but the supply of infamy can't meet it cause the reset takes away and counters all infamy generated at the bottom every 2 weeks.

Removing the reset will not throw the infamy into inflation, it will merely deflate the hyper inflated value of infamy to normal. It will bring balance.

Equilibrium will make it more balanced. Supply will meet demand, it will not give Rovio more profit. However it will give Rovio much better "SALES" but considering the number of people they've assigned on bb and the level of importance they are giving the game. I'd say they aren't trying to make much sales out of bb, only higher % of profit for lower % of effort which is generally very very bad for business on the long run.

 

Without inflation the countries of this world wouldn't
have got to where they are now. Although a lot of inflation is bad, we are producing more efficient ways of producing goods meaning that more can be produced meaning a bigger supply which often overtakes demand. Nothings perfect. Deflation or too much inflation is bad for the economy though.

Apart from that, what u say makes sense, I just need to brush up on my economics.

 

Please reread my posts in this thread. I think the infamy reset needs modification from it's current state. I agree that it's unfair in that it pushes players down to fight the new players coming in. Infamy needs to come into the pool from more than just the bottom.

I advocate for the reset to encourage competitiveness amongst nightmare players. Many of these players spend money on the game and chasing the ranks is incentive for them.

No,this is wrong. Games still award and remove ~24 infamy give or take a few. Gaining 100 infamy is already not easy, gaining 1k infamy is straight up difficult. Allowing the top players to go even higher is not going to help this fact. With no infamy reset, the player base will eventually spread out further in infamy range, but how does that help? It's better to keep the leagues close so there can be movement up and down the totem pole.

Look, everyone naturally balances out in this system to a 50/50 win ration in the infamy rank. Increasing infamy ranges puts more stress on the lower level player base because now they have to reach further and further to reach the next goal post. This is not a viable solution.

 

Bump

 

Speechless, standing ovation, read this post guys, there are many words, but it's brilliant.

I just want to make a quotation of the result of those thoughts:
"I can only see one reason for the infamy reset to exist and it exists so that all the players can be frustrated and annoyed all the time and maybe some of them will be forced to buy stuff just to get into decent infamy levels."

 

At the very least, the reset level, should one even exist, should grow with the player base. It's too small now and it's half the reason matchmaking sucks right now. I can 1v5 players 1000 infamy below me. That's how big the infamy difference is. That's insane. I often see difference of up to 1000 infamy in a single match so you can see how this huge difference in strength with only a small difference in infamy is a big problem.

 

You are right. However there maybe a few minor details that you may have overlooked.

Gaining 24 infamy and losing 24 infamy is hard and will continue to keep getting harder BECAUSE of the reset.

The lower league players keep getting stronger and the higher league players keep growing too which results in you having to get better and play better at an increasing rate every reset.

Losing the reset will result in infamy getting easier to earn thus negating whatever frustration you mention. Same can also be said of the lower level players.

Perhaps you may have some difficulty in understanding the scenario. Allow me to explain in an easier manner, I come from India, the currency here is the rupee. It's low on value due to several reasons, one of them being inflation.

While the value of my currency in comparison to a dollar is 100 rupees for 1 dollar. It is also relatively easier for me to earn 1 rupee than it is for me to earn 1 dollar.

I can make 100 rupees nearly a 100 times more easily than I can make a 100 dollars. Because the value of the rupee is lesser, so is the ease of earning it.

As for the newbies you mentioned who'd feel frustration. I'm sure they'd try playing for atleast a month rather than just give up the second they see the infamy table and by that time they should be able to grasp how easy or tough it is to make infamy.

However, if you were a newbie, will you continue playing the game after 2 weeks of being bashed by mk4s and 5s?. No.

I can assure you any "frustration" they'd feel from infamy inflation would be virtual. This however is the real deal and has the potential to kill the game.

If people want the reset then I am not against it. But I want them to have valid reasons for the reset and I do not see any so far.
Your reasons while they seem accurate on the surface actually seem impractical to me, forgive me for saying so.

 

Look, I agree that lower players continue to face off against stronger and stronger ships. That was exactly my point in my initial post.

Beyond that, I don’t have difficulty understanding the scenario you describe, I disagree.

INFAMY INFLATION IS THE REASON FOR THE RESET. If you allow infamy points in the game to grow unchecked, you wind up with inflation exactly as you describe. This is poor design. Nobody benefits if infamy loses value. The balance lies in removing infamy at a slightly lower rate than it is generated to keep up with new players entering the game. There should be a mid level source for infamy gain so that the pressure to generate it does not fall squarely on the shoulders of the new players as it is destroyed.

My proposal to push people up in infamy based on the MK of their highest level ship would keep the strong ships out of the new player pool.

You say infamy will become easier to gain and lose. I don’t see it that way. A win is still 24 points. We will all settle into the infamy zone where we win/lose 50/50. The infamy points will go to the top players. Slowly the points will be distributed among the lower ranks.

You need to think seriously about the consequence of allowing infamy to grow unchecked. And you need to propose a solid plan about how developers cope with the ever growing infamy points. Do they increase league infamy levels? This creates huge gaps from one league to the next. Say nightmare lower boundary moves to 5000 infamy the. Then to 6000 infamy. Is this what you want? At some point new players will need 5000 infamy to get into master league, then what?

Do they increase amount of infamy lost and gained in each match? Where will it end. The highest level players will reach unfathomable levels of infamy and those who wish to compete will be unable to do so. There will be a disincentive for these players to spend money on the game and the design team will suffer.

 

1. It appears to me that you believe that the infamy reset only bothers the beginners. No it does not. It bothers everyone who are trying to play the game.

The new ones just have it worse. If mk1-3s with uncommons are getting bullied by mk5s with epics. Then mk4-5s are being bullied by mk6-7s with legendaries.

If the newbies are super frustrated and quit in 1 month. The not so new players quit after 6 months. That's the only difference.

2. You are right. If infamy points are left unchecked, it will without a doubt result in infamy inflation. But why is that a bad design?. Would you mind being a wee bit more elaborate?.

Nobody benefits from infamy losing it's value. But the infamy reset causes so much damage especially at the lower levels that getting rid of it is a huge benefit, if not for the few 1000 nightmare league players then certainly the lower league players.

3. You are right, a win will still give 24, a loss will still take 24. But what I meant when I said "infamy will be easier to gain" is that the ship and weapons tiers spread across the infamy ranges will be the exact opposite as it is now.
Mk1 will not face mk5s with epics but rather other mk1s with commons below 1k range, mk2s with uncommons will be seen below the 2k ranges, do you get what I am trying to convey?.

The player base will be much more evenly spread out across all infamy ranges. It would be more FAIR. And make no mistake fair is what we are looking for.

As for your next point, yes, again you are very correct, even if you nerfed the infamy you gain and lose per match to 1. The infamy being unchecked for long periods of time will still lead to inflation.
Here's the thing however, like I said the infamy reset being removed will spread out the ship/item tiers more evenly, this means that even it does take 5k to get to master.
It would be the same as getting to 1.7k with the reset in todays scenario due to the uneven unfair mismatching that takes place.

Now for your final point. If people are frustrated that they cannot reach higher levels of infamy despite having good skills, they will have incentive to spend.
Isn't that what is happening right now as well?. People getting bullied by higher ships forced to spend simply so that they can get a better ship or gear so that they can have a FAIR CHANCE?.
People must be allowed to spend, on their own accord in order to GET BETTER THAN THEY ARE NOW. They must not be forced to spend simply to HAVE A FAIR CHANCE.

My suggestion will only result in more whales, cause more new players will STAY after a month of playing the game instead of rage quitting and even if a very small % of them are spenders (Even if it's just a vip subscription) then the game will still benefit better than the current scenario.


Also, I do not wish to be arrogant and claim my suggestion is the only one which can work. I will try to be open about all and any suggestion which manages to make the situation atleast better if not completely resolve all issues. You say your idea will solve this issue. You suggest infamy floors for all mk tiers. Now what would happen if I made a new account, kept leveling up captains, got all perks, kept winning fights, getting more stars and pearls.
Started buying uncommons, rares, even epics with enough time but NEVER levelled up any of my ships?. If I never have to buy higher tier ships then I'll have plenty of gold and sugar to work with. I can keep buying parts and keep getting better gear without ever getting a better ship. My mk1 might be full of legendaries and be powerful enough to destroy mk5s but I will still remain in the mk1 floor and bully the players with poor gear.
What happens then?. Imagine the same scenario for mk2s-6s. They'll keep getting better gear and keep bullying ships with poor gears till they get bored and level up. Is that healthy?.

Also, what if I main 2 ships and both are different mk levels?. Which floor will I be assigned?.
If I have an mk7 shooter and an mk5 fixer, which floor will I be reset to?. Do I bully mk5s with my mk7 shooter?.
Or will I be wasted in the mk7 floor with an mk5?.

Your proposal is to throw in a wee bit more infamy in the mid levels to lessen the dmg caused by the reset.
My opinion is that the dmg must be completely negated, there must be no damage at all.
This is not some dumb pve game. It's a complete PvP game. Matchmaking HAS TO BE FAIR, there SHOULDN'T BE ANY DAMAGE AT ALL. The only way it will be fair is if the infamy generated at the bottom is EQUAL to the infamy lost at the top.
Otherwise the reset is bull.

 

Allow me to elaborate on my alternative idea.

First off, NM league should be divided into 3 parts like the other leagues. Once you hit NM league 1, infamy gain starts to fade. Every 100 infamy after the NM1 mark results in -1 infamy gain per victory, eventually making every victory only count for 1 infamy gain. Note that defeats still result in -24. This technically allows players to reach unfathomable heights, but the difficulty in doing so would be outrageous.

The reason I think this could work better is that infamy is still being lost, just not at such an alarming rate. For example, you're 600 infamy above the NM1 mark, each victory has a loss of 6 infamy. The amount of players that even make it this far will likely be minimal. This should give players a chance to fight fairer battles to reach new heights while placing a soft infamy cap on the system.