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legendary?

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Tobias Åström, 25 Sep 2017.

  1. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    And here's my counterpoints. :)

    From what I've seen, Nightmare league captains are absolutely not "the majority of players" in this game. I'd love to summon @Miika here to ask for some player distribution by infamy (not asking for player count, because I know you might not want to share that) but even a bell curve of players by league scaled to 100% would be relevant.

    As I showed above, a Level 1 Legendary is already better than a L50 Rare. Not "maxed out Tier I/Level 10 Legendary" - as in "you assemble the pieces, out pops the weapon, your L50 Rare is now obsolete." If you pull a Legendary that is the same as your current L50 Rare, you're a fool if you don't immediately shift your perks over and start using it, because it will always be better in every scenario.

    True; it depends on how much you're willing to pay. There's a difference between "I paid up to $60 because that's about what a AAA game costs these days" and "I paid $60,000 because WHAAAAAALE" - there is absolutely a pay wall for Epics, it's just a multi-staged wall, with falloff depending on how much you want to spend.

    I think you mean L41 Epic? Unless evolution rules change, you don't need two duplicates until you try to hit the button on an L40 item. And at L40, yes, the Epics are better because of that fourth perk slot. But until that point the Legendary is better. Edit: Unless you mean "voluntarily stuck" as in "you evolved to T3 for the extra perk slot, now you're focusing on other items"

    For items that derive more value from perks (Crit chance, duration) then I agree, the Epic with the extra slot is more valuable. But putting an extra Epic Damage% perk only brings an L31 Epic in line with an L1 Legendary. Evolve it a few times and sure, it's better, but the Legendary would be better if you evolve it too.

    The original comment was:

    And I think the point is that a whole lot of people not only do care but should care about T1 Legendary items. Even if I never upgraded them, if I somehow had all of my items replaced with Level 1 Legendaries on my ship, not only would I have better items now but it would be a very, very, VERY long time before I was able to get "better items" built up in my inventory to replace them - if that ever even happened. I would need to get triplicate Epics with four Epic perks each just to nip at that un-upgraded Legendary's heels.
     
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  2. D3X

    D3X Well-Known Member

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    And here are my responses to those.
    Sure, we are not majority in terms of population. What I mean by majority is how our accounts can apply to majority as examples. Players that pretty much paved the pathway for pretty much all F2P who aren't where we are. I think our advice and opinions should be valued and might come useful for players intending to spend little to no money. Heck, it's even beneficial to P2W players.

    I never argued that the Level 1 Legendary isn't better than L50 Rare. My statement is that it's only barely better once you get your captain levels up and have the ability to get L50 anything. Because the only advantage the L1 Legendary has over L50 is about 5-8% better stats, that's pretty negligible considering a better perk or redirected Captain skill can negate.

    I'll be quite honest here. P2W isn't P2W if the player hasn't dropped more than $1000 in this game, anything below is dropped into the account and you can barely even see a difference in where it went. Because the items and parts are pretty much scattered(thanks to RNG) into that account and the likeliness of putitng together a good combination weapon has very low odds. Dropping in $1000 will not give you T4-T5 weapons immediately, I assure you. Ask around some players that have spent that sort of money and they are complaining of not getting duplicate Epics. I've always said to new players interested in P2W, you need to spend more than 5K at the least to start seeing drastic results.

    This game is very expensive, it's even more expensive than some of the most expensive mobile games I've seen to date ( Clash of Clans, Clash Royale, Game of War, Rival Kingdoms etc)

    L31-40 Is T4. L41-50 is T5. I illustrated L31 because that unlocks the 4th Perk slot, but already considered better than the T1L despite slightly lower stats.

    You won't be able to evolve it, that's my point. And for it to be technically better than a T4 - T5 Epic, you need a T3 Legendary.

    Trust me, you will get those Epics before you even get a T2 Legendary.
    But getting 1 legendary is a very very long time, and that's one single one, getting 2 doubles that. Getting 3 through F2P will already surpass my time and even Bittersteel's time in the game.
     
    Last edited: 26 Sep 2017
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  3. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    Responsception time. I'm going to change formatting so we don't wear out everyone's scroll wheel trying to go through this - you're in bold.

    Sure, we are not majority.
    No argument here. You guys are the old grizzled veterans, who've seen a bunch of stuff and know what the experience has been. You're who every newbie aspires to be once they get out of Challenger league and finally "git gud"

    Because the only advantage the L1 Legendary has over L50 is about 5-8% better stats, that's pretty negligible considering a better perk or redirected Captain skill can negate.
    I feel this only really applies to weapons that see benefits late in the talent tree; and let's face it, if I'm comparing a new Legendary to my existing L50 Rare or L30 Epic, I'm pretty far down that tree.

    Training progression also doesn't really hit a screeching halt until after the Tier IV upgrades are unlocked - but I might hash out an extreme example later if I have the time of a player with virtually no training with L1 Legendary vs. a fully-trained or nearly-there player using Rares. I imagine you're correct that the Rares would win, but it's going to be awful close and probably vary item to item. Something like Explosive Cannon doesn't get its big boost of +50% until late in Bhurt's tree.

    I've always said to new players interested in P2W, you need to spend more than 5K at the least to start seeing drastic results.
    laughter.gif

    L31-40 Is T4. L41-50 is T5.
    Right, my mistake. So ... what's the reason for stopping at L31 then? Lack of Epic parts to upgrade? At L31 a Level 1 Legendary is still better.

    You won't be able to evolve it, that's my point. And for it to be technically better than a T4 - T5 Epic, you need a T3 Legendary.
    No, it's not. Let's take your Big Berta, before talents:

    L31 Epic - 844
    L1 Legendary - 915
    L31 Epic + extra Epic +8% damage perk = 912

    Again, your Level 31, Tier IV Epic with an extra Epic perk is only as good as a Level 1, Tier I, completely un-upgraded Legendary.

    But getting 1 legendary is a very very long time, and that's one single one, getting 2 doubles that. Getting 3 through F2P will already surpass my time and even Bittersteel's time in the game.
    Or just remortgage the house and sell the car ;)
     
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  4. D3X

    D3X Well-Known Member

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    i'm going to remove the responses we all agree on for more scroll savings ;)

    I feel this only really applies to weapons that see benefits late in the talent tree; and let's face it, if I'm comparing a new Legendary to my existing L50 Rare or L30 Epic, I'm pretty far down that tree.

    Depending on how many months you've spent on the game so far, getting further down the tree only takes a few months more. Even when you get your first Legendary, the time you have still have only one, you will get down to those levels on the tree before you get a second. Let's just pray that the Legendary you get is the one you wanted most.
    As I have described, my Big Bertha isn't being utilized since I never really wanted it for my style of play. However, my epic situation is looking a lot brighter and I don't actually care for getting a second Legendary.

    Again, your Level 31, Tier IV Epic with an extra Epic perk is only as good as a Level 1, Tier I, completely un-upgraded Legendary.
    Right, and at Level 31, there's 9 levels to upgrade to make it better without needing to upgrade to T5 (Level 41). Infact, it's better because of versatility of slots depending on the item. ie; a Sniper Cannon with 4 Crit Chance will always be better than one with 3 Crit Chance. Some other good examples would be burn duration would gain 1.5s which would equate to more than 10% damage increase, or Railgun cooldown of more than 8%, or Overboost with .7s duration. Not all perks are Damage bonus dependent, some are better by other factors; duration, effect, range, cooldown etc.

    One major point that you're completely missing out on my discussion is that. I have one single Legendary. One in approximately 9 months of playing, as opposed to a couple epics that could become T4 or even T5 way before the time I get a 2nd Legendary to mingle with.

    Or just remortgage the house and sell the car ;)
    Right, so that's the best advice for this discussion on how to get MORE Legendaries. That's the absolute truth. Getting T3-T5 Legendaries can cost as much as a car or a mortgage.
     
    Last edited: 26 Sep 2017
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  5. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    i'm going to remove the responses we all agree on for more scroll savings ;)

    Well I'm going to shrink the font, so there ;)

    Depending on how many months you've spent on the game so far, getting further down the tree only takes a few months more. Even when you get your first Legendary, the time you have still have only one, you will get down to those levels on the tree before you get a second. Let's just pray that the Legendary you get is the one you wanted most.

    Getting screwed by RNG is at least something that everyone can appreciate. Except for the whales who just mash "buiy moar perrlz"

    Right, and at Level 31, there's 9 levels to upgrade to make it better without needing to upgrade to T5 (Level 41). Infact, it's better because of versatility of slots depending on the item. ie; a Sniper Cannon with 4 Crit Damage will always be better than one with 3.
    And that Level 1 Legendary has 9 levels to upgrade to make it better as well. The Sniper cannon will probably be better because you can get an extra 7.5% crit chance, but for other weapons and many items, the Legendary version just has such a massive advantage in base stats that it takes a huge amount of resources to match it - and in the case of Rare items, it flat-out never will.

    One major point that you're completely missing out on my discussion is that. I have one single Legendary. One in approximately 9 months of playing, as opposed to a couple epics that could become T4 or even T5 way before the time I get a 2nd Legendary to mingle with.
    And the point that I'm making is that your single Legendary item may still the best option for now. Once your Epics reach Level 35/40 they'll be more powerful, sure. But until they are, use the Legendary item instead.

    That's the same thing we filthy peasants do with our Commons, Uncommons, and Rares - I didn't scrap my L30 Uncommon Sniper as soon as I got my first Rare, I'm not scrapping my L40 Uncommon Box to build an L20 Rare, and I'm not even looking at my single Epic Repair Bolt until I get a duplicate, because right now my L30 Rare is better; and even then, it'll only just get there, and if I pull another Rare that's a bunch of wasted resources I could have used elsewhere.

    Right, so that's the best advice for this discussion on how to get MORE Legendaries. That's the absolute truth. Getting T3-T5 Legendaries can cost as much as a car or a mortgage.
    You might be walking to work, or living in a cardboard box, but you'll have your gold items!
     
    Last edited: 26 Sep 2017
  6. D3X

    D3X Well-Known Member

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    Ok we're down to the final 2.5 points of this debate, so we're getting close to the end. :D

    And that Level 1 Legendary has 9 levels to upgrade to make it better as well. The Sniper cannon will probably be better because you can get an extra 7.5% crit chance, but for other weapons and many items, the Legendary version just has such a massive advantage in base stats that it takes a huge amount of resources to match it - and in the case of Rare items, it flat-out never will.
    Is it really that massive? We're still talking a few points percentage wise via the charts. So given the versatility of most of the items that more than 50% of the Perks aren't "Item damage / state" increasing modifiers, they modify characteristics of that Level and/or Rarity of the item does not modify: Item Cooldown, Shield Defence, Torpedo Speed, Fire Duration, Fire Grenades, Critical Hit, Range, Burn Damage, Shield Duration, Freeze Duration, Turbo Effect* More Hitpoints* (*I included these because this is a massive boost beyond a legendary can add). Which are advantages/bonuses with these Perks to an item beyond what Epic or Legendaries can give you.

    And the point that I'm making is that your single Legendary item may still the best option for now. Once your Epics reach Level 35/40 they'll be more powerful, sure. But until they are, use the Legendary item instead.
    That might be true to where you are at in the game, but like I have already described. All I need is a few more items of various items and I'll have 5-6 T4 Epics that are usable in my builds, which will be a few weeks to months. I already have 3 T4 Epics that I'm currently using. So quantity over quality, and in that sense you're better off with more Epics in the same timeframe. Am I saying a T5 Legendary isn't amazing? No, they are simply breathtaking, but for us normal folk with normal budgets for mobile gaming, they are only to stare at behind a window (heck even a T3!).

    That's the same thing we filthy peasants do with our Commons, Uncommons, and Rares - I didn't scrap my L30 Uncommon Sniper as soon as I got my first Rare, I'm not scrapping my L40 Uncommon Box to build an L20 Rare, and I'm not even looking at my single Epic Repair Bolt until I get a duplicate, because right now my L30 Rare is better; and even then, it'll only just get there, and if I pull another Rare that's a bunch of wasted resources I could have used elsewhere.
    Correct, I'm not telling you otherwise. Only replace the item when it's leveled to the same "power" level. Same goes for Legendaries, if you have one you use right now, wait til you get an Epic of equal or better proportions. I'm not telling you to use a weaker item, that would be silly. You might be hoping for a Legendary, but you'll end up getting more Rares, when when that saturates to getting 6 or more duplicates (this will occur sooner than you think), then you're looking towards Epic. Trust me, I once thought the same with Legendaries and wanted to get one, but as time went on with little return(TY RNG), I found myself getting more epics and collecting them.

    All I'm saying is that the chances of getting Epics out do a Legendary over 70:1 in terms of time and occurance.
     
    Last edited: 26 Sep 2017
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  7. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    Is it really that massive? We're still talking a few points percentage wise via the charts. So given the versatility of most of the items that more than 50% of the Perks aren't "Item damage / state" increasing modifiers, they modify characteristics of that Level and/or Rarity of the item does not modify (snip)
    Thing is that if there isn't a fourth Epic perk that increases the item stat, that means the Level 1 Legendary is worth about a Level 35 Epic, and it's that much better. The Epic may have more "perks" from the perk slot, be it cooldown, burn time, range, etc, but it also loses out on the peak damage/value until a higher level. I look forward to @Kitterini doing the "Meta snapshot" after the v2.5 patch drops and being able to factor in the exact item level and perks as well into data.

    All I need is a few more items of various items and I'll have 5-6 T4 Epics that are usable in my builds, which will be a few weeks to months. I already have 3 T4 Epics that I'm currently using.
    Right, but until you get those few more items to break into T4, if you had a Legendary version of the same item, it'd be worth it to run it. Right? Because that could be a few months of doing less damage (or healing, speed, etc) than you could.

    Correct, I'm not telling you otherwise. Only replace the item when it's leveled to the same "power" level. Same goes for Legendaries, if you have one you use right now, wait til you get an Epic. All I'm saying is that the chances of getting Epics out do a Legendary 70:1 in terms of time and occurance.
    Agreed. You're always going to use the best version of the item you've got. And since they're so huge to begin with, odds are good that if you have a Legendary, it's your "best version" even if it's a Level 1. Difference is that for those of us down in the slums, it will probably always be the best item we have, as opposed to those who can eventually get Level 30+ Epics that will eclipse it.

    edit: ha ha i added a third point back :D
     
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  8. D3X

    D3X Well-Known Member

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    Closing.
    Basically for Free-to-play players, the best before date for Legendaries is before you get enough Epics. That's what I'm getting at, and if you looked at it closer, it doesn't matter how much more damage you did or didn't do at the lower levels anyway, since we're all stuck with the 50% win rate.
     
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  9. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    Basically for Free-to-play players, the best before date for Legendaries is before you get enough Epics. That's what I'm getting at
    I'm just putting forward that for many F2P players, that date might as well be "forever" because getting three of the same Epic and then the resources to level it up will probably be beyond how long they're willing to play this game. ;)

    And if you looked at it closer, it doesn't matter how much more damage you did or didn't do at the lower levels anyway, since we're all stuck with the 50% win rate.
    Now that's something we can all agree on.

    And screw RNG and gacha mechanics!
     
  10. D3X

    D3X Well-Known Member

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    I'm just putting forward that for many F2P players, that date might as well be "forever" because getting three of the same Epic and then the resources to level it up will probably be beyond how long they're willing to play this game. ;)
    Yes, that's the sad truth. Not many will put up with and grind through this game to get to where I am. I'm still grinding. But for you, since I've already seen you in several games via matchmaker (3K) infamy, I think it's far closer than you think, it was only a few months ago where I was in your position.

    And screw RNG and gacha mechanics!
    Yes, I've never been a fan. It's worst with the ridiculous amount of time with Legendaries. Someone said it would take 300-400 years to collect all Legendaries to T5.
     
  11. CaffeinatedChris

    CaffeinatedChris MVP

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    But for you, since I've already seen you in several games via matchmaker (3K) infamy, I think it's far closer than you think, it was only a few months ago where I was in your position.
    Oh, I've seen you too ... coming at me full-throttle with both barrels. You wanna stop that? I'm trying to heal people here, it's hard to do when I'm on fire and exploding

    It's worst with the ridiculous amount of time with Legendaries. Someone said it would take 300-400 years to collect all Legendaries to T5.
    Honestly I'll probably quit playing this game before I ever get to the point of using Epics. It's lost the allure it used to have.

    That or I'll just account-wipe, start over, and collect some more data along the way. :)
     
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