DevReply Why is the sniper cannon balanced?!?

Firstly, the underlevelled blast cannon is being compared against a maxed out sniper in term of damage, which makes the whole comparison a bs.

Secondly, I don’t know how you managed to come out with this: 85% x 175% = 148.75%, because these number should never be multiplied as they are different things. I would really like to get a detailed explanation from you on this.

 

Ok now let's go with what you and snapahots said ( 3 crit chance a d 1 crit damage for sniper , 4 damage for burning target for blast cannon) ,and let's say it is ok that we have a flare gun with BC

But like snapshot said that even with flare gun he has average of 80% that his target is burning ( so that mean that BC wont deal 20160 DMG ,instead it will deal 80% of 20160=16128 (16128+ 2 normal damage from a blast cannon that has only damage for burning r
Target perks = 1100damage? idk ) = 16128+2200= 18328

13504/18328= 73.6%

So like i said sniper cannon easily deal 70-80% of blast cannon damage and sniper cannon has about 200% of blast cannon range and about 200% of blast cannon speed


That from what have given till now

But when i reach my phone i will look at blast ,and sniper damage , speed , talents and perks and do my own calculation

 

Ok but what if I factor in the few times that BC Crits? Now that would change things wouldn’t it? Look we gave numbers based on a controlled environment. Yea can factor in “chances” of when that BC hits someone’s that is not on fire but then your getting really situational and if we’re going there then there’s about 20 other variant scenarios to also factor in. So for the record in GENERAL SC deals (on average) 66.98% of BC’s (average) DPS given the most likely and controlled scenario. Not accounting for variants.

 

Quick update to this thread. Turns out the wiki was wrong. I was cruising the raffle panel and noticed sniper crits. Turns out they are 7.5% not 4.5%. That brings sniper up to a 48% crit chance and it's overall numbers become:

Normal Hit: 844
Crit Hit: 2110
Average Hit: 1446

Sorry. I hope there aren't other errors in the perks.

 

You ‘literally’ don’t understand how percentages work. You think 45% is 4/10.

Anyone who can count knows that’s only 40%, which means you mistakenly (or deliberately) lowerd the crit chance by 5%, and then compounded the error by raising the non crit chance to 60%.

And now you’re strutting around telling other people they don’t understand maths. This is the saddest thing I’ve ever seen.

It doesn’t make the ‘whole’ comparison bs. I compared the weapons up to t4, and stated clearly what I was comparing. If you want to add on the extra ~58 points of damage that Blast get after t4, go ahead and add it yourself. It’s not going to make any difference when Sniper is averaging nearly 600 points more.

I can try to explain 85% x 175% if that’s helpful to you...

1. Blast does X damage, between range 0 and 24.

2. Sniper does Y damage, between range 0 and 24.

3. Y = 0.85X

4. Sniper does Y damage between ranges 25 to 42.

5. Blast does 0 damage between range 25 to 42.

6. So Sniper is doing 85% of the damage, but it’s doing it for 175% of the range.

You can see this yourself by working it out the other way around: When X is 1, Y will be 0.85. When you factor in the range. Blast is X * 24 = 24, and Sniper is Y * 42 = 35.7 (a much bigger number)

But how much bigger is that as a percentage? Well... 35.7 / 24 * 100 = 148.75%, which is the same answer again.

Which is how much extra damage Sniper will do, over infinite games with infinite possible positions between shooter and target.

Not counting other factors such as Blasts lower accuracy, which you guys don’t even want to talk about. But even when we omit that, and do everything your way, and use your own bs figures for the power difference. Sniper is still outdamaging Blast, across the full range of possibilities. That’s how OP it is.

 

I find your calculation misleading and is one of the most inaccurate analysis, on par with the 100 shots test done by A55A5IN.

Everything was fine until point No.6 where you said sniper is doing its damage for 175% range and you’re multiplying the damage output with the range, which is soooooo wrong.

Your analysis is similar to the 100 shots test, that you assume:
-at range 42, sniper hits you, blast doesn’t
-at range 41, sniper hits you, blast doesn’t
-at range 40, sniper hits you, blast doesn’t
.
.
.
-at range 24, sniper hits you, blast hits you too
-at range 23, sniper hits you, blast hits you too

Surely in this way sniper does much more damage than blast, because it takes into account some idiot shooting 20 blast cannon shots from range 42 to 24. But this is nowhere near any actual gameplay because in actual the blast user would move close to the sniper user. The sniper user does have an advantage of hitting the blast user earlier, but before the sniper cools down, blast user would be within shooting range.

Your analysis is only valid if we’re playing another game called “Battle-take-turn-to-move-1-range-and-shoot-Bay”. In that game, sniper is truly OP, swift torp is even more OP as it’s 1-slot and has infinity range. But we’re playing Battle Bay in which ships are moving frequently and it’s easy to get within shooting range of blast cannon/ex cannon.

I must say no analysis can include all the factors in an actual game, but please, at least make your analysis logical and not assuming something that won’t even happen in the game, i.e. blast user shooting from range 42-24 without moving forward.

 

Dude max Crit is 45%.
I currently have all Crit Chance Trainings researched and am only missing 7.5% additional percentage boosts in perks. Cause I have 3 Rare Crit Chance perks at 5% each and 1 Epic at 7.5%. Currently I’m at 37.5% and with All Epic perks I’ll be maxed at 45%.

 

Yea I gave up debating percentages as soon as he assumed the average Crit out of 10 shots is higher than 5. Literally if we picked the next highest number 6. That’s 6/10 and what’s that in percentages. A 60%. Yet the game lists max Crit chance at 45%. I really can’t with that guy anymore lol. He literally disregards the 45% and says it’s 50%+.

 

OK, I'm really trying to get this right *sigh* I really should've just shared the spreadsheet so other people could more easily help with errors. The problems are coming up because I don't have all the gear and weapons so in some cases I'm relying on the wiki... which is turning out to be uselessly incorrect.

The sniper itself has a base crit of 5%
There is 10% each available from BHurt level 11 & 18 for another 20% (ERROR Found, they are 5% each)
You could put in 4 perks, each with 7.5%

SO yeah, max is 45 and for this example we're using 37.5%

OK, so revising YET AGAIN

Sniper Base: 844
Sniper Crit: 2110
Sniper Avg: 1319

*** edited to add ***
On the bright side, this is really helping to improve my spreadsheet which I didn't make for this purpose. I wanted to be able to say something like, "OK, I have a R30 blast cannon. What would an E20 one look like in terms of upgrade and how many parts, etc. will it take to get it there.

 

You don’t have to be an idiot taking 20 blasts shots from range 42. If you’re at range 42, and you get shot by a Sniper, and you can’t shoot back because you are out of range. That doesn’t make you an idiot. You’re just experiencing one of the many possible situations, where Sniper does more damage.

The idea that you can just zoom into range is not realistic. Maybe in 1v1, but In a real game, you can’t just zoom straight towards 5 unfriends all firing at you, and get straight into 24 range. It takes time and skill and risk to get into that range. With Snipers able to exchange shots the whole time.

If you can reasonably show that a certain range band is statistically more likely, I’d be happy to consider that. But without that, the only reasonable way to proceed is to assume all ranges are equally likely. Which is actually debatable, as increasing range linearly actually causes the ‘area’ of control to go up exponentially.

 

BC max range can be reached upto 27.2 something if you burnice and buzzkill last talent.
Sniper upto 45 I think

 

I have only ever said it was 45%.

The only time I mentioned 5/10 was when I said it was wrong, to the same degree that 4/10 is wrong. Which is true, they are both +/- 0.5 out.

I feel like you’re just trolling me now. No one could be this hard of understanding.

 

Do you actually have a sniper and some other cannon on your main load out? If so, can we please get some damage data? All anyone on this thread needs to to is write down their current weapon achievement progress for the sniper and whatever else. Then play like 50 matches. Then see how much damage occurred.

I'm trying to be scientific about this. I've got all sorts of swell theories and formulas. What would be nice is some experimental data. Unfortunately, I can't just pop a sniper & blast on my speeder without a quick ride to seal clubbing hell.

 

Now you’re bringing in actual game play yea?

In actual game, you can take cover and approach the unfriends without being hit once before you get into your shooting range. In actual game, sniper can miss at long range. In actual game, there are speeder/enfo with nitro/Tesla shield to help them deal with sniper (not only sniper actually). What’s not in the actual game is someone who keep shooting their blast cannon when he’s out of range and keep letting the sniper hits him but still stay in the open water.

 

Correct. The idea he had isn't bad but what we'd need to do is calculate the integral under the hit probably curve for all ranges. The problem is that we don't have the data to know what that curve looks like.

What we know is that Sniper has a huge gap in potential damage to overcome. We know that the range and projectile speed are going to overcome some portion of that. What we don't know is how much. Does it overcome 70% or so like I think or 150% or so like Viscount thinks.

 

Just use 9 out of 20 shots

 

His idea is terrible and wouldn’t even happen in the actual game play. Agree that we need more data for better calculation but sadly I don’t think we will ever get those data.

All these while I wasn’t suggesting sniper is underpowered or worse than blast. It’s balanced, and definitely its range and projectile speed made it up for its low base damage, and also the long range is useful in many situations. But these people just exaggerate the power of sniper and made unrealistic analysis to mislead the others.

Edit: Honestly I don’t like to make these analysis because the numbers we get are not close to the actual game play, all these are just theories. When someone posted the 100 shots test and the latest 175% range test, I felt the need to point out what flaws are there in those analysis. And guess what? After you pointed out their flaws, they started to throw in some real game scenarios and tell you what you said isn’t realistic. Didn’t these people realize all these started with their laughable analysis in the first place?

 

No, again, you don’t keep shooting your Blast Cannon from out of range.

We’re talking about a statistically significant number of games here: thousands or millions. In all of those games, there will be multiple situations where snipers have the advantage of range, and get extra damage. You can’t just ignore that.

If you want to speculate that a certain range bracket is more probable, then I agree that would change the results. But I don’t see how you’re going to prove that.

The only logical way to proceed is to assume each range, or exchange of shots is equally likely, over thousands of games.

 

That's me burning some incense in a prayer offering to the Battle Bay god of data @Miika

Miika... any chance you can help us with some live data on this one? Ideally we'd need data from people who had similarly leveled snipers and other weapons to compare actual damage output in actual game play. For reasons unknown, nobody who's pro-nerf on this thread wants to provide that data themselves so I pray for the data heavens to open up and shower us with wisdom and knowledge.